China’s all-seeing surveillance network • Hacker News Board

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#51

Post by d4nt » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:50 PM UTC

facialwipe wrote: post #44

maxxxxx wrote: post #26

Stuff like this will slowly stop further evolution of society and lock down the status quo. Right now we still have ways to change society peacefully but in a surveillance state either nothing changes or change has to come with force. I think societies with massive surveillance will stagnate until they collapse.

Or more frightening, the Communist experiment is successful long-term and becomes the dominate model for 'stability' globally.

At first I was terrified of this, in the short term this could cause a lot of suffering but I’ve become convinced it will fail in the long term.

Human societies have evolved a very sophisticated mechanism for moving people up and down hierarchies using a distributed reputation tracking system. This system is interesting in that they’re trying to centralise the reputation tracking system and thereby control it.

To the extent that it replicates what people, on average, think about you I think it’ll work. But planned economies loose to unplanned ones because distributed decision making outperforms centralised decision making. Eventually this system will be misused, make bad decisions, or get ridiculously complex. Then people will loose faith in it. When that happens there’s very little China’s government can actually do to control 1.4 billion people. (That’s not to say that there their remaining options aren’t very worrying though, e.g. tanks)

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#52

Post by yurie_breschnef » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:50 PM UTC

d4nt wrote: post #45

yurie_breschnef wrote: post #42

I sometimes feel like currency is a primitive preliminary to this social points system. People who show unusual or controversial behaviour (be it political or social) will soon loose sources of income and thereby social status. People who stick to the accepted norms and ethics and do not act up will on average have the chance to move up the ladder and earn more money and prestige. The analogy is not perfect, of cours…

It’s similar, but in capitalist systems all get a weighted vote on how many points you get. (Either by buying your time/products or if I’m your boss I can promote/fire you). By the look of it, the Chinese system gives complete control to the government. So it’s analogous to a fully planned economy.

I agree with your point.

I am sometimes baffled when people seem to think that the amount of money that is payed for a certain job is proportional to how beneficial that job or service is to the society. I mean, there are Bankers who make good money screwing everybody over. Yet somehow people seem to look up to them.

I'd like to think that there might be improvements in how we value/pay services. But letting the government decide that is also quite foolish.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#53

Post by ffwacom » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:52 PM UTC

mojuba wrote: post #50

ffwacom wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doubt, there's no pure communist states left, they all fell after killing a bunch of their citizens by "knowing what's best". The economy is a chaotic system and any earnest attempt at top down control will fail, let alone communism which historically was more about transferring power to your friends than any real belief in an ideology.

Just FYI (has been said a gazillion times on the Internet): no state on this planet was ever communist. Communism is a society without money, no such thing existed on a state level anywhere. The states you are referring to were 100% socialist, i.e. no private property in any form or share with very very few exceptions; money tightly controlled by the state; all businesses are state-owned. The comment above though pro…

A society without money is even more absurd.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#54

Post by ffwacom » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:58 PM UTC

paradite wrote: post #37

yurie_breschnef wrote: post #4

I think this is a horrible idea. Just imagine how many times we have been wrong in our judgement of the behaviour of citizens. What would the social credit score of Ghandi or Martin Luther Kind have been, at the time of their prominent actions? We have proven time and time again that there is no sure way to judge how "social and acceptable" something is, and the value of a behaviour to our society. What is seen as "u…

The irony is unreal in this comment.

why

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#55

Post by jerf » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 1:01 PM UTC

perilunar wrote: post #41

yesenadam wrote: post #2

Better title - Social credit: China's digital dictatorship Pretty horrifying story, sounds like Black Mirror.

So which is worse, the Black Mirror scenario (everyone rates each other), or the Chinese real-life version (the Communist Party rates you)? Is it better to fear the State or your fellow citizens? The Black Mirror episode, btw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

"So which is worse, the Black Mirror scenario (everyone rates each other), or the Chinese real-life version (the Communist Party rates you)?"

The one that you'll get, which is that due to the opacity of the system, it presents itself as one in which everyone rates each other, but in fact the government or other control mechanism nominally different from but ultimately indistinguishable from the government has a heavy hand in both the ability to manipulate the judgment and the ability to manipulate the seeds of who is successful and thus has high ratings. It presents itself as fair and all egalitarian and makes it seem like anything that goes wrong is your friend's fault or something, but is in fact strictly controlled.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#56

Post by modzu » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 1:01 PM UTC

the irony here is that the premise might not even be true -- does social credit really provide the "control" or "stability" it aims to achieve? who is writing the algorithm that says "napkins" credit your social score while alcohol debits it? compare financial scores which are not perfect either but they are based on models that have some science behind them. what model underwrites the social credit system? is it valid? it's scary to think that it could be arbitrary

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#57

Post by adam-a » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 1:01 PM UTC

It's an interesting article but it is also worth remembering that western society is not all that far away from this vision. Credit scores are widely used, there are apps for them, they can prevent you from getting housing or loans. A criminal record likewise affects your employment prospects, and many other areas of your life. CCTV may be widespread in China but the USA and UK are still way out in front[0]. Lastly, for the suppression of the guy who uncovered party corruption, just look at the treatment of Snowden or many other whistle blowers.

0 - https://www.statista.com/statistics/484956/number-of-surveil...

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#58

Post by mtgx » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

FundThrowaway wrote: post #22

yurie_breschnef wrote: post #4

I think this is a horrible idea. Just imagine how many times we have been wrong in our judgement of the behaviour of citizens. What would the social credit score of Ghandi or Martin Luther Kind have been, at the time of their prominent actions? We have proven time and time again that there is no sure way to judge how "social and acceptable" something is, and the value of a behaviour to our society. What is seen as "u…

I'm pretty sure that's half of the point, stop any radicals from forming large followings.

Where radical means those that those the people in power in any way.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#59

Post by mtgx » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

yurie_breschnef wrote: post #42

I sometimes feel like currency is a primitive preliminary to this social points system. People who show unusual or controversial behaviour (be it political or social) will soon loose sources of income and thereby social status. People who stick to the accepted norms and ethics and do not act up will on average have the chance to move up the ladder and earn more money and prestige. The analogy is not perfect, of cours…

Except in this system you will get penalized (lose income) for not supporting the government in power. That's not exactly how it works in a standard capitalist and democratic system.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#60

Post by partisan » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

yurie_breschnef wrote: post #42

I sometimes feel like currency is a primitive preliminary to this social points system. People who show unusual or controversial behaviour (be it political or social) will soon loose sources of income and thereby social status. People who stick to the accepted norms and ethics and do not act up will on average have the chance to move up the ladder and earn more money and prestige. The analogy is not perfect, of cours…

A religious analogy is that in Christianity, it is not enough to be good. You also have to accept Christ as your savior. Without both of those things, you risk your eternal soul.

Here, the state is asking you to work within the laws they put in place and be a good productive worker by generating value, but you should also show absolute faith in the government and to prove it by achieving a high social score.