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OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

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Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#51

Post by _ptgt »

nopinsight wrote: post #24
jsheard wrote: post #3

For context: OpenAI is playing against a professional team this time, unlike the event a few weeks ago where the humans were skilled but not active pros or used to playing together. This team isn't the strongest (they placed 17-18th during this TI) but OpenAI will play again tomorrow and the day after, presumably against progressively better teams.

In general, the differences among a top echelon of human expertise are vastly smaller than those between humans and other kinds of agents, animals or AIs. We all share similar cognitive architecture for handling complex domains after all. Once OpenAI Five defeat 3-4 pro teams convincingly, it could be presumed from the observation above that they will defeat any other top teams within a year at most, if sufficient re…

> Once OpenAI Five defeat 3-4 pro teams convincingly, it could be presumed from the observation above that they will defeat any other top teams within a year at most, if sufficient resources are used for improving the AI. An exception is when a fundamental hidden weakness is found in the AI.

Not sure how you intended this, but the hero pool constraint is actually an enormous advantage for the AI. The current hero pool isn't, by any means, random. I don't know OpenAI selected it, but it's highly conducive to OpenAI Five's strengths--deathballing, mechanics, teamfight coordination, etc. It lacks essentially all of the heroes that humans would normally pick to counter that strategy.

Playing on an unrestricted hero set would test OpenAI Five in entirely different ways than playing on the current hero pool would. I would not be comfortable betting on your statement at all.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#52

Post by noxvilleza »

hamhamed wrote: post #13
sama wrote: post #5

We are playing with regular couriers for the first time! And against a pro team.

Pain isn't the toughest of opponents at TI. Will they be playing vs a team that is currently still alive in the bracket? So far it seems Pain is kind of controlling the game at least much better vs the caster team (99th percentile)

They're still the ~19th best team in the world.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#54

Post by swaggyBoatswain »

DoTA has come such a long way from being just a warcraft 3 mod. All those random pub matches I used to play with w33, analyzing all the patchnotes and .w3g replays before youtube was a thing, to shitty garena pubmatches, to a full fledge esports remake, to going to my first Dota TI2 international 2 years back, and now AI is being thrown in the mix. I wonder what the future of DoTA will look like now

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#55

Post by nindalf »

el_devo wrote: post #25
sambroner wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like playing one of the best 200 players in the world is a reasonable proxy for a top tier player. I'm unfamiliar with DOTA rules, but does anyone know if there are any limitations on the openAI team? e.g. Things like keystrokes per minute, scroll speed, etc

Yes, as the sibling poster said, there is a 200ms reaction speed restriction on OpenAI. Also note that OpenAI is using the Dota 2 bot API (its input is not pixels, and its outputs are not mouse actions and keystrokes), so it has more precise information than the human team on things like unit coordinates and can target its actions more exactly.

This 200ms restriction seems really slow, but it isn’t. It feels extremely fast, to the point where some heroes and tactics used by humans are useless or impossible. For example, one of the humans played a hero called Axe. It was literally impossible to land one of his skills because it takes 400ms to use it. I’ve seen a lot of professional Dota but I’ve never seen Axe calls being dodged so perfectly and consistently.

If this game was balanced around AI rather than humans, this game would look very different.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#56

Post by roenxi »

Q6T46nT668w6i3m wrote: post #47
tokipin wrote: post #46

The bots were using their ultimates pretty liberally. Maybe their "bot meta" is very group-intensive, so if they see one hero there's a good chance there are other heroes nearby? Other possible reasons: Opportunity cost of not using ultimates, getting a single kill late game can mean victory, bots penalized for games going later or their games just not running long in general?

I think it’s becoming clear that the network is overfitting to team fights (and other small duration action). OpenAI use of cooldowns in the last 20 minutes was inexcusable. It became obvious OpenAI had no working strategy.

Is OpenAI's expected win chance available anywhere? Only the bot reaction time against initiations was keeping them in the game for the last 20 minutes, so it might have been the desperate flailing typical of bots when they are losing.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#57

Post by NegatioN »

Leary wrote: post #39

Outfought the humans in teamfights, other than that not sure how much long term strategic thought was shown.

Totally agree. I was very hopeful after seeing the benchmark match, but openai definitely looked a lot more naked today. Long term (5-10 mins) looked really weak when it really mattered. It just wanted toget team fights and capitalize on it to take down objectives later.

I think I saw somewhere that they are training to consider a time frame of a minute or so, so it makes sense. But it's also slightly disappointing since these games have long term strategy when teams are evenly matched.

Mechanics and positioning looks really strong still. Decisions less so.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#58

Post by whymauri »

Q6T46nT668w6i3m wrote: post #48
roenxi wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his team isn't the strongest (they placed 17-18th during this TI) Oh, is that all :P. Assuming a 2x buffer for players who are good but not competitive, there are maybe 200 humans in the world who are better at DotA. If mastery is 1 in 10,000, these people are masters.

Many believe that it’s an exponential curve so there’s a substantial difference between the first and twentieth place teams.

Looking historically at team ELO and how squads have gone on 27-series win streaks, this is probably right. Though I think the gap between "low-tier" TI teams and TI winners is getting much tighter. Group B at TI8 was so close the difference between upper-bracket and lower-bracket was 1 game for most of the teams.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#59

Post by noxvilleza »

21 wrote: post #16

How can I tell looking at the screen who is winning? Is there a score somewhere? Maybe the left side sliders?

Net Worth Difference is the best single indicator, but there are additional factors like tower difference, item purchasing decisions, hero composition, hero aliveness & buyback status, aegis, etc. Some specific heroes also wildly differ from the norm for each one of these factors. The game is very complex :()

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#60

Post by mbbutler »

noxvilleza wrote: post #53
symlinkk wrote: post #37

Their reaction time seemed way too fast. It was entertaining to watch though.

It's actually internationally delayed reactions to make it more fair (200ms of delay added).

That's what OpenAI claims, but there have been too many insta-hex/euls moments for me to believe that. Players are shift-queing blink+AoE spells and getting hexed in between the two abilities. That's way faster than a 200 ms reaction time.

I think OpenAI might have a bug with how they're adding reaction time.

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