A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos • Hacker News Board

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#51

Post by Nokinside » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

Academic kudos should be realigned better with scientific achievement.

Academic kudos translates directly to money (tenure, research funding) and power (gatekeeper positions) and that makes it microeconomics problem. Highly competitive person with high scientific achievement may not be the best person to judge and distribute kudos of others.

We should find a way to quantify kudos distribution to create good incentives. Researchers should get impact factor for mentoring, accepting papers to journals or giving voting for tenure to others who produce high impact studies after they get the tenure.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#52

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:18 PM UTC

IggleSniggle wrote: post #27

diego898 wrote: post #22

I think changing the PhD system is a great target, but how can you identify that as the culprit without changing the professoriate/tenure system?

That system has already changed. Tenure tracks are largely phasing out as older professors retire. They are being replaced with part-time adjunct teaching positions, supplemented by big name researchers that bring in grant money and institutions can write marketing articles about. Those big names are not incentivized to stay by a tenure system, as they can easily accept positions at other institutions or in private i…

[deleted]

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#53

Post by warcher » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

The only real rot I see in the PhD track is the dangerous imbalance of degrees to jobs in certain areas (not STEM usually, although STEM is pretty uncompromising for tenure track). IMHO in the humanities the PhD is some kind of sick ponzi scheme, where advanced degrees serve to subsidize tenured faculty's careers with little to no hope of going on to anything of their own. (I know STEM isn't much better, but it's a little better, especially with industry being willing to assume some risk.) But I've got friends $100K in debt for an art history PhD, and that's craaaaaaaaaazy given what awaits on the other side.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#54

Post by extralego » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

NegativeLatency wrote: post #45

extralego wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These phenomenons are interesting to witness for someone like myself who loves doing research but followed a very different academic path because I felt demonized by formal school systems in high school and at a state uni. Speaking purely from observation of many peers, there were definitely some who navigated the social and academic realms well, and garnered respect from socially-encourageable and conformist mentors…

> They consistently think what I’m doing in my life is more interesting than theirs. I think the opposite The grass is always greener

Sure. Fair. But reason can resolve a bit more detail here if we try. Particularly, I am struck that there is such little complaint over the status quo of citation dependence. Popularly speaking, of course there is, but researching PhDs just make their days of it with barely a fuss. Shouldn’t that be particularly concerning? In recognition of the congruency this has with what the authorities demanded of me when I argued with my teachers over subject matter in high school, it is infuriating. When this is what you were asking for all along, how can you be so surprised that it’s what you got?

It does raise a question of how the grass is green, and why it’s on the other side.

Fun fact: The grass on the hillsides in the opening sequence of The Sound Of Music was actually painted by hand. It was worth it for the altitude and the Austrian mountain backdrop.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#55

Post by chriskanan » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:21 PM UTC

It is true that people chase citations, but only because they are a surrogate for impact. If you are doing research, the goal is to do research that matters and citations are one way to measure that people cared about the work (of course, once something becomes a measure people start optimizing for that instead of the original objective).

A PhD is a degree in doing research. When students start, it is true that many think they want careers in academia. Many then realize that academia isn't what they want after a few years in and seeing how their advisors live, realizing salaries are lower, and realizing how competitive it is. There are plenty of amazing career doors that open with a PhD besides being an academic... any career that requires the ability to conduct, interpret, and/or communicate research.

The comments about meeting practitioners are pretty foreign to my experiences doing a PhD (in AI) and being a scientist. If anything, when I meet people in industry they often think non-practical research isn't worth doing even if it might have long-term value.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#56

Post by DSingularity » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:21 PM UTC

apo wrote: post #14

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave gradu…

Also, professors are so often in no position to offer genuine advice. They often have massive conflicts of interest which they do not disclose: funding sources, requirements, and plans.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#57

Post by tachyonbeam » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:23 PM UTC

extralego wrote: post #40

apo wrote: post #14

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave gradu…

These phenomenons are interesting to witness for someone like myself who loves doing research but followed a very different academic path because I felt demonized by formal school systems in high school and at a state uni. Speaking purely from observation of many peers, there were definitely some who navigated the social and academic realms well, and garnered respect from socially-encourageable and conformist mentors…

I work in a large academic research lab and I'm with you on the lack of creativity and conformism. Most people here don't have ambitious ideas. They always think in terms of basic improvements to ideas that were recently published about. They seem to automatically think that progress can only be made in the direction of the latest cool papers from well-established authors in the field. Me, I'm with Peter Thiel... Don't compete. Differentiate yourself. Try to find a niche that everyone isn't already trying to fill.

People here are also seemingly very conformist. For the most part, they work extremely long hours, are in hetero-normative relationships, with similar life goals (get a high paying job, buy a house, have kids), they don't do drugs or rarely even drink. If they have any hobbies, it's going to be your typical going hiking and camping sort of deal.

I'm surprised that STEM research doesn't attract more "freaks" and free-thinking people. People who want to challenge assumptions and do things differently, explore new possibilities. Unfortunately, I guess where I am, the main draw is prestige and the possibility of getting a high paying job when you finish.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#58

Post by fhood » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

Man, this view of getting a PhD, which seems fairly common, is so alien to me. Both my parents are research professors, both regularly have students, and I have never seen any of the misery or stress that people keep bringing up.

Sure, if you are unprepared to do research then you shouldn't do a PhD, but my parents' students are hand picked, and it is very rare that they end up with a student that doesn't want to, or is unprepared to do research.

Being a PhD student should be one of the most fun parts of an academic career. You get to focus on your research, and are mostly removed from the politics and stress of securing funding. You aren't constantly being barraged by requests to review papers or having your time used up by a myriad of other responsibilities.

I guess it is totally possible that the corner of academia that I grew up around (ocean sciences at a lab removed from the main campus) is an outlier, but my impressions of getting a PhD were always positive, and the reason I never did it was because the part after your PhD seemed like it sucked.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#59

Post by rtkwe » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #4

A PhD should primarily be about learning how to do research in your chosen field, not the research itself.

How in the world do you measure and teach them that without having them actually do research and demonstrate that they've succeeded? It also does a lot for them by building professional relationships and making sure their name is at least somewhat out there by the time they've finished the PhD.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#60

Post by chaosbutters314 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:26 PM UTC

DSingularity wrote: post #56

apo wrote: post #14

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave gradu…

Also, professors are so often in no position to offer genuine advice. They often have massive conflicts of interest which they do not disclose: funding sources, requirements, and plans.

this. They don't mention to students, who are too inexperienced, to understand funding and how it works. Professors want the prestige of having tons of students which isn't always in the best interest of the student. The professor's plan can also be "vague" in order to always hold the carrot in front of the horse's mouth. Endlessly chasing something it will never reach.