Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants • Hacker News Board

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#51

Post by extralego » Mon, Aug 06, 2018, 7:59 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #39

extralego wrote: post #19

I am confused about something that seems very basic, and hoping somebody can help me out with this. I have always supported left politics, and I think I understand the basics of supply-and-demand economics. If immigrants come to the US looking for work instead of bringing work, there should be a higher supply of labor, driving the low-end pay-rate down. Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly througho…

> Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly throughout the 3 decades that I have been alive, how do we on the left reason that immigration is not a factor? Because we can point directly to the tax policy changes that are largely responsible, starting with the Reagan-era tax burden shift on to work. And because we on the left don't deny that immigration is not a factor, but instead that immigration polic…

Thanks for this thoughtful response. I definitely feel like you get my struggle.

I do understand the impact of Reagan-era economic policies and don’t accept that America would be capable of thriving despite a lot of immigration.

But, I guess I don’t understand why this convo isn’t articulated. Supply-and-demand of the labor market is super simple and it seems pretty obvious that immigration would end up being a scapegoat. I just realized I don’t have anything to say that because, despite understanding numerous economic causes for the lower wages, I can only reason that immigration adds fuel to the fire.

But for some reason people on the left seem to act like this contention doesn’t exist. They just talk about how terrible the border and ICE is; both of which have been awful for many years. It’s nice that people care all of a sudden but name-calling doesn’t address these rational claims of the opposition. If you’re right and that’s the way it is, I wonder how we can actually solve this.

It sounds like if we can just actually take the economics seriously for once then it would eliminate any decent ground to defend the immigration enforcements. I mean, we have to do it some day. It seems to undermine everything we stand for.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#52

Post by amf12 » Mon, Aug 06, 2018, 8:01 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #48

Arguing immigration policy is usually better to do based on morality. Economic grounds is a hard proposition, since assuming the government budget is balanced we can split any given population in two groups; one which under a given time frame increases budget deficit when grown and the other which causes surplus when grown. If we only look at the economical aspect then the question about immigration is simply a crass…

> Here in Sweden a researcher did such study and unsurprisingly the result showed that for the time frame of 20 years the state economics from immigration is a net negative.

I would be very interested to read this study. Can you please provide a source?

What kind of immigration does the study account for? Is it refugee based or diversity based immigration which, naturally, could be a burden on the country because these most likely are not medium-high skilled immigrants. However, the article here is talking about the H1-B program which is only for employment based high-skilled applicants (granted some of these could be medium-skilled but these applicants are definitely not low-skilled) and contribute to the economy by paying taxes and contributing to the local economy by spending.

> the article here only cite a study that correlate economic growth for companies that hire skilled immigrants.

If there is an economic growth for the local companies, this certainly might correlate with the economic growth for the economy of the country. But I do agree with you that there should be a more focused study for this.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#53

Post by amf12 » Mon, Aug 06, 2018, 8:05 AM UTC

peterburkimsher wrote: post #37

Immigration policies already set a very high barrier to entry, especially considering that 20% of the US population is functionally illiterate [1]. Immigration is the only hope for me to ever have a family. I was born in Switzerland to British parents who lived in France (in Geneva this is not unusual). Because I'm a citizen by descent, I can't pass on nationality to future children. My girlfriend is Taiwanese, and I…

> I was focusing on New Zealand, Canada, or Australia

You should look into this for Canada and Australia. You don't need a job to apply for these if you meet the criteria:

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

https://www.immigrationdirect.com.au/work-visa/skilled-indep...

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#54

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 06, 2018, 8:08 AM UTC

xtreme wrote: post #43

cylinder wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all much ado about nothing anyways. 85,000 new H1 visas a year for a population of 330 million? Give me a break. Even if these all went to Wipro it wouldn't even be worth thinking twice about. And the refugee intake is only 49,000 a year. An absolute disgrace.

I am genuinely curious to find out which number or percentage you'd consider a reasonable number or immigrants to admit each year, and how you arrived at that number. Are there any published studies that have tried to calculate this?

[deleted]

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#55

Post by handsomechad » Mon, Aug 06, 2018, 8:12 AM UTC

peterburkimsher wrote: post #37

Immigration policies already set a very high barrier to entry, especially considering that 20% of the US population is functionally illiterate [1]. Immigration is the only hope for me to ever have a family. I was born in Switzerland to British parents who lived in France (in Geneva this is not unusual). Because I'm a citizen by descent, I can't pass on nationality to future children. My girlfriend is Taiwanese, and I…

Can someone who understands the mechanics of this ELI5 how this works?

so the parent is a UK citizen but can't pass his citizenship on to his children? And his future wife is a taiwanese citizeen, but because he would have to enlist in the taiwanese army to become a citizen, they cannot raise their family there? Can someone flesh out the details for the clueless and unworldly like myself?

What part do each of these things play in the parent posters predicament vis a vis starting a family:

a) Being born in Switzerland b) Parents being British c) Parents being French residents d) Girlfriend being Taiwanese e) Mandatory Taiwanese Conscription Laws

What UK law prevents parent from marrying his GF and raise his children in the UK? Why can't he live in Taiwan as an expat and not join the army?

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#56

Post by dssd » Mon, Aug 06, 2018, 8:15 AM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #44

extralego wrote: post #19

I am confused about something that seems very basic, and hoping somebody can help me out with this. I have always supported left politics, and I think I understand the basics of supply-and-demand economics. If immigrants come to the US looking for work instead of bringing work, there should be a higher supply of labor, driving the low-end pay-rate down. Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly througho…

Immigrants increase both labor supply (by working) and demand (by buying things). People often forget the demand part. Businesses in an area that was losing population can benefit from immigrants moving in. A shrinking community isn't good for business.

Will you explain why these exact things have only had precisely the opposite effects in practice?

Seems like flawed theory to me.

Considering immigrants (as well as most low-wage Americans) primarily purchase cheap imported goods, the only jobs we appear to be creating by this method are extreme low-wage jobs, just like I said. Any other revenue goes to very wealthy who stash it or invest in capital or property, which makes it harder for most Americans to own a home.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#57

Post by dssd » Mon, Aug 06, 2018, 8:17 AM UTC

pille wrote: post #33

extralego wrote: post #19

I am confused about something that seems very basic, and hoping somebody can help me out with this. I have always supported left politics, and I think I understand the basics of supply-and-demand economics. If immigrants come to the US looking for work instead of bringing work, there should be a higher supply of labor, driving the low-end pay-rate down. Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly througho…

You pass more effective labor protections, and then stop letting employers get around them just because they hired undocumented workers. You prosecute employers for exploiting a vulnerable labor force, instead of charging the people being exploited. This seems like the truly left position to me. I heard Clinton mention it once in the 3rd debate, but for some reason people focused on other stuff.

Hopefully she mentions it twice next time. Pretty sure Bernie Sanders mentioned it every single time he opened his mouth.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#58

Post by peterburkimsher » Mon, Aug 06, 2018, 8:17 AM UTC

amf12 wrote: post #53

peterburkimsher wrote: post #37

Immigration policies already set a very high barrier to entry, especially considering that 20% of the US population is functionally illiterate [1]. Immigration is the only hope for me to ever have a family. I was born in Switzerland to British parents who lived in France (in Geneva this is not unusual). Because I'm a citizen by descent, I can't pass on nationality to future children. My girlfriend is Taiwanese, and I…

> I was focusing on New Zealand, Canada, or Australia You should look into this for Canada and Australia. You don't need a job to apply for these if you meet the criteria: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se... https://www.immigrationdirect.com.au/work-visa/skilled-indep...

New Zealand's Skilled Migrant Category, Canada's Express Entry, and Australia's 186 & 187 visas are the focus of my hopes right now. Requirements are similar.

Even if I get an independent visa, I still need a job to pay for food and shelter. My current savings would only last about 2 months, far too short for the 5 years of residency to get citizenship there.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#59

Post by peterburkimsher » Mon, Aug 06, 2018, 8:19 AM UTC

halflings wrote: post #49

peterburkimsher wrote: post #37

Immigration policies already set a very high barrier to entry, especially considering that 20% of the US population is functionally illiterate [1]. Immigration is the only hope for me to ever have a family. I was born in Switzerland to British parents who lived in France (in Geneva this is not unusual). Because I'm a citizen by descent, I can't pass on nationality to future children. My girlfriend is Taiwanese, and I…

If you work in software (not clear from your post) you should be able to easily find a job in the UK. Companies will usually take care of VISA sponsorship. Otherwise, France now has a new VISA policy for talented engineers and similar profiles ("Passeport Talent"[0]). [0] https://france-visas.gouv.fr/web/france-visas/passeport-tale...

Yes, I work in software (industrial control systems and network admin). For now I could work in France while the UK is in the EU, but I would need that visa after it leaves.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#60

Post by peterburkimsher » Mon, Aug 06, 2018, 8:22 AM UTC

handsomechad wrote: post #55

peterburkimsher wrote: post #37

Immigration policies already set a very high barrier to entry, especially considering that 20% of the US population is functionally illiterate [1]. Immigration is the only hope for me to ever have a family. I was born in Switzerland to British parents who lived in France (in Geneva this is not unusual). Because I'm a citizen by descent, I can't pass on nationality to future children. My girlfriend is Taiwanese, and I…

Can someone who understands the mechanics of this ELI5 how this works? so the parent is a UK citizen but can't pass his citizenship on to his children? And his future wife is a taiwanese citizeen, but because he would have to enlist in the taiwanese army to become a citizen, they cannot raise their family there? Can someone flesh out the details for the clueless and unworldly like myself? What part do each of these t…

My girlfriend does not already earn £18,600 and we haven't been living together for a year. Therefore I can't sponsor her to go to the UK.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/139807999382936/

The APRC offered to foreign residents of Taiwan expires if I move overseas for more than 2 years. So it's not really permanent e.g. if I moved to another country to look after ageing parents, I could never go back. The only "permanent" status is citizenship, and Taiwan requires foreigners to forfeit their previous citizenships to naturalise. It's not only the military issue.