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Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

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Re: Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

#51
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still cannot explained gravity, and the standard model is unsatisfactory. They know exactly what they are searching for, read the paper. Esp. in QCD there's a lot still missing. Sea quarks, gluons.

Forgive me for the naive question, but I thought we had proper models for gravity since General Relativity.

GR only works at large scales. It is still unclear how gravity at quantum scales should be modeled.

Re: Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Hossenfelder is well within her wheelhouse criticising the search as wrongheaded, members of the public reading and forming an opinion on the proper course of physical research is less than useless. It's exactly the same thinking that leads people to conclude that global warming isn't a problem, because they found a climate scientist who also disagrees. Unless we all, en masse, want to go get physics degrees to…

"It's exactly the same thinking that leads people to conclude that global warming isn't a problem, because they found a climate scientist who also disagrees." No it isn't. You've read the book? The point is, particle scientiests have shown no fundamental progress in the last decades, and claimed several times there will be progress for sure with the next billion EUR. But this has not materialized. Hossenfelder argues…

She is criticizing a subset of the theoretical physics community, not the experiments.

Re: Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

#53
post #14

Find a way to call it "The largest/most powerful/biggest ever accelerator" otherwise you won't get Trump to do it

Personal politics is a larger dynamic than scientists like to admit. When you are planning something big, something international, you have to think about access. In 2030, will this facility be accessible to the international community? Will Chinese involvement become a security issue? Will data be shared openly? Those decisions are made by the executive branch, subject to the whims of whoever is in charge at the tim…

It's fundamental research. What security issues are you talking about?

Re: Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

#54

why not finish the one in Texas? yes the facility probably needs repairs but a lot of initial work is done I would think?

I wish that would happen, the SSC design is even more powerful than LHC. But not sure Texas is culturally the optimal place for such high science these days. Part of the opposition to SSC back in the day was religious. CA or NV might be better.

PS - part of the opposition to the LHC also was religious. Remember people objecting to humanity deliberately searching for the “God Particle”, aka Higgs Boson, which the LHC was specifically designed to find? Probably not the best word choice on the part of the scientific community, unless they were deliberately trying to troll the 20-30% of the population that treats religion literally. There were similar undercurrents reaching all the way up to Congress during the SSC’s life.

Re: Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

#55
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still cannot explained gravity, and the standard model is unsatisfactory. They know exactly what they are searching for, read the paper. Esp. in QCD there's a lot still missing. Sea quarks, gluons.

Forgive me for the naive question, but I thought we had proper models for gravity since General Relativity.

General Relativity cannot be (yet) quantised in a predictive way.

Re: Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that science has a pretty good (but not perfect) track record of improving the human condition, yes, trust them or spend the effort to become a recognized expert.

I do not argue about science. But I would be interested in the track record of particle science in the last 50 years on improving the human condition.

I'll mix nuclear physics and particle physics, which are close anyway: The www, digital x-ray, PET/CT, MRI, proton/ion beam cancer therapy. Just from the top of my head, certainly not complete.

Re: Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

#57
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But OP said that the government could also pony up billions of dollars for the project. The main point seemed to be that universities are wasting their endowment with fancy buildings instead of doing science.

New fancy buildings entice more students with heavy student loans to spend.

New buildings and the possibility not to penny-pinch every time also makes a much nicer work/study environment.

Re: Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

#58
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal politics is a larger dynamic than scientists like to admit. When you are planning something big, something international, you have to think about access. In 2030, will this facility be accessible to the international community? Will Chinese involvement become a security issue? Will data be shared openly? Those decisions are made by the executive branch, subject to the whims of whoever is in charge at the tim…

It's fundamental research. What security issues are you talking about?

Some of the sensor tech is subject to export controls. The stuff that could be used for nuke research/development.

Re: Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

#59
post #19

I thought particle physics were coming to an end? After CERN found the Higgs boson then nothing. The ROI of a more powerful accelerator is abysmal. It is impossible to know how large a new collider needs to be and if anything interesting will be found. Use the money on a moon-base instead and then mars.

How do you propose to measure the ROI of the completely unknown? This is not just related to your comment here, but it's a very general and important part of science. In the early part of the 20th century it was felt that physics was basically 'solved' and the only changes would come in refining values to another decimal point. Of course that was before the discovery of quantum mechanics or the explosion in particle…

Using probability is a good start I think. As I understand it, CERN should be able to find new particles below about 2–3 TeV in energy. It hasn't and physicists say it’s a reasonable assumption that there might not be anything new to find until energy scales of 100,000,000 TeV or more. You'll need to build and accelerator around the Sun to reach those energy levels. With that in mind, does it make sense to build something slightly larger than LHC? At billions of dollars?

Re: Richard Milner on a new U.S. particle accelerator

#60
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still cannot explained gravity, and the standard model is unsatisfactory. They know exactly what they are searching for, read the paper. Esp. in QCD there's a lot still missing. Sea quarks, gluons.

Forgive me for the naive question, but I thought we had proper models for gravity since General Relativity.

At the quantum level gravity is not explained properly yet. My favorite rant is from Heisenberg in his autobiography.

But even on the astronomic level GR leaves the dark matter hole, which is a non-satisfactory explanation to many. Elegant yes, but certainly not proper.

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