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The controversy over child killing among Amazon tribes in Brazil

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Re: The controversy over child killing among Amazon tribes in Brazil

#51
This is reminiscent of the controversy over male and female circumcision (or "genital mutilation" as it's sometimes termed). Clearly some traditions and religions consider these practices to be not only acceptable but sometimes even necessary for religious or cultural reasons.

There are also some parallels to honor killings and "suttee", a practice among some in South and Southeast Asia in which a widow burns herself to death on her husband's funeral pyre. Once again, both are traditional practices, with religious and/or cultural sanction.

Finally, many societies have practiced human sacrifice. Recently in the news there was a story about an ancient mass burial of sacrificed children being found (I believe it might have been in Brazil actually).

Most "modern", "enlightened" or "civilized" societies have tried to stamp out such practices, and this action has often not favorably viewed by the societies which are forced to stop their traditional practices.

There is definitely an ethical dilemma here for people who believe we should tolerate the practices of other cultures.

Re: The controversy over child killing among Amazon tribes in Brazil

#52

Brazil was under a military dictatorship until 1985 where those wanting democracy were imprisoned, tortured and killed. Over the past four years we have seen what started as a minor investigation into corruption turn into a judicial coup, overturning governments the people are voting for - the judges ousted Lula, then their process led to the ousting of Rousseff, who herself was tortured during the dictatorship. You…

Thank you for pointing out the wider context for this debate, you beat me to it. The level of hypocrisy on view in Brazil regarding this issue is breathtaking: implicit acceptance of what amounts to genocide on the one hand, while prosecuting its victims on the other. Given the attitude that Brazil has had historically toward its indigenous population, one would think they would be _encouraging_ infanticide -- it saves mining and lumber companies the cost of ammunition to shoot folks, after all.

The best option here would be to employ applied anthropologists in partnership with anthropologically-aware medical practitioners and demonstrate that disabled children can be cared for, in ways that are culturally compatible with local belief systems. However, this would need to be part of a multi-pronged campaign to recognize the equality and autonomy of native peoples, things which so-called "civilized" populations seem incapable of grasping.

This isn't an either/or issue; "culture" should not be misunderstood as some sort of monolithic edifice that you either accept or reject. There's room for debate and compromise on everything, and the dissent reported within tribes regarding infanticide is emblematic of this. As long as medical practices are presented in ways that respect local communities, it is surprising how well partnerships can be forged between "Western" and indigenous customs. These cultures don't have to "stop," and its clear from the text that not every member of these communities agrees with the practice of infanticide. Approach people with respect, provide information in a manner that fits into their perspective of the world rather than imposing one's own, and work together to find a compromise position that doesn't require killing children. Change is a basic ingredient in all cultural systems. Easy? Of course not, but it can be done.

And to those explicitly or implicitly stating that Amazonia peoples are cruel, barbaric, inhumane, and don't deserve to exist because of the way disabled children are treated, as an American I can point to the way in which my own culture allows children to suffer and die of malnutrition or poor health. Heck, look at how much Michigan's state government cared about children in its territory drinking leaded tapwater. At least the tribespeople described in the article give "inconvenient" children a relatively quick death, rather than letting them linger with life-long brain damage and other maladies as we do here [1].

[1] Hyperbolic Swiftian analogy. Author does not endorse killing people in general, let alone killing children, okay?

Re: The controversy over child killing among Amazon tribes in Brazil

#53
I think James Charles Napier said it best. When addressing the practice of sati (burning the wife to death on her husband’s funeral pyre), he responded to accusations of disrespecting local customs thusly:

> "Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."

An implicit premise in moral relativism is that part of our morality should be respecting other moral systems. As soon as you notice that, it becomes clear that we must use something other than relativism to base our morals on.

But answering this specific case does not require a complete theory of morality. Killing children is bad. End of moral analysis.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_James_Napier

Re: The controversy over child killing among Amazon tribes in Brazil

#54
post #53

I think James Charles Napier said it best. When addressing the practice of sati (burning the wife to death on her husband’s funeral pyre), he responded to accusations of disrespecting local customs thusly: > "Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefor…

"we must use something other than relativism to base our morals on"

So what is that exactly?

Re: The controversy over child killing among Amazon tribes in Brazil

#55
post #53

I think James Charles Napier said it best. When addressing the practice of sati (burning the wife to death on her husband’s funeral pyre), he responded to accusations of disrespecting local customs thusly: > "Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefor…

"we must use something other than relativism to base our morals on" So what is that exactly?

I'm not sure. My bet is that it involves minimizing suffering and satisfying preferences.

Re: The controversy over child killing among Amazon tribes in Brazil

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that I enjoy the idea of communicating with millions or billions of people. That's not why I use the language I use. The incidental fact that I share a common language with certain other individuals of high status, isn't why I speak this language. Would that I could choose another language, would that be the reason to choose it? If that's true, certainly there are people with more than me, operating at h…

BTW, as an addendum, I wrote this as a pure response to the parent comment, without RTFA, and the original HN title of the submission was that of the article itself ( The Right to Kill ) didn't disclose that this was specifically an article WRT murder as a crime of passion, since framing an idea as a Right is more abstract, whether the victims are children or not. Moral relativism aside, the more civilized approach t…

Responding to both of your comments here:

It seems to me that generally we agree. But I want to clarify one bit: I don't advocate a monocultural/monolingual life. English is my L2, I also have an L3, and more a coming. My main argument was that if something required preservation efforts, it's by definition moribund. In deciding whether or not to try to revive a thing that needs preservation (including the environment, cultures, languages, traditions, etc.), I think that we should take a pragmatic approach: preserving the ecosystem is useful to us, so do it. Preserving a language with a 100 or so speakers with other means than making recordings, analysing it etc., e.g. trying to teach it to kids or adults, is basically impractical, and generally useless. Same with a culture that is detrimental to life in every way. If we think it's interesting, we can document it. But we should help the actual people out of primitive life.

The "emptiness of modern life" is nothing more than a poetical, romantic little sorrow in comparison to being killed for being a twin, or for being born to the wrong mother, or for being slightly disabled. I'm more than 100% sure that a starving kid in Africa or most of these tribespeople would take the "emptines of modern life" over whatever they have without giving it a second thought.

Re: The controversy over child killing among Amazon tribes in Brazil

#58
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because it's a case of Godwin's Law (without justification), and is an over-simplistic and emotive comment that is likely to trigger a flame-war.

How it can be an over-simplitic thing? Is there any room for a valid argument/justification of killing a child (except for "cultural thing" bullshit)?

I find it troubling too, of course, but it is simplistic to not consider it in its anthropological and evolutionary context, and against our own societies' values around euthanasia.

Dr Peter Singer, a prominent and respected professor at one of the world's leading universities, has expressed (and being condemned for) positions around this topic in the western world in recent decades.

I find those positions troubling too and I don't agree with them or defend them.

But it's not a simple issue, and complex, controversial issues like this need to be approached with caution, else we end up in hostile flame wars that benefit nobody.

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