Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#51

Post by xstartup » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 9:03 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

saintPirelli wrote: post #35

I guess this turns the discussion around poverty into a 'chicken and egg' discussion. Which one was first? One's poverty or one's inability to make good life choices? So conservatives will say the latter and liberals will say the first, because you've probably been oppressed by someone and we are already back at square one.

In the US, one serious medical crisis can simultaneously make you exhausted and unable to think straight while plunging you into poverty that is nigh impossible to escape. For many Americans, the only bad life choice they made was being born here, then routine attrition took care of the rest because if you live long enough, you are pretty much guaranteed to have a serious health issue. It's just a matter of time.

In the US, one serious medical crisis can simultaneously make you exhausted and unable to think straight while plunging you into poverty that is nigh impossible to escape.

In Europe, we've don't have healthcare issues - it's free here.

Still, the people are unhappy and poor. Society as a whole is a lot more equal tho, I've friends who are very poor and ones who are very rich and I never sensed a discrimination.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#52

Post by dd36 » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 9:07 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #28

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is so much to gain by doing so, for everyon Not for everyone. For young people. The way we’ll get UBI is by repurposing Social Security and possibly Medicare funds for its purpose. That, in turn, requires millenials turn out to vote.

Here's the thing about the "young people" argument: the young, because time, live in a world built by the old. Everything from the physical infrastructure to the social institutions. So if paying for pensions is a wealth transfer from young to old, usage of the built environment is the opposite flow. In other words, the people who built say the roads did so for a package of renumeration that included a salary and a p…

And debt is an intergenerational tax that fully offsets your argument. The young didn’t run deficits.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#53

Post by xstartup » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 9:11 AM UTC

jl2718 wrote: post #39

saintPirelli wrote: post #35

I guess this turns the discussion around poverty into a 'chicken and egg' discussion. Which one was first? One's poverty or one's inability to make good life choices? So conservatives will say the latter and liberals will say the first, because you've probably been oppressed by someone and we are already back at square one.

There go those poor people with their defective brains making bad decisions again. Bullshit. Poor people make bad decisions because they have more opportunities to do so, and less opportunities to make good decisions. Rich people don’t have to decide a damn thing to end up on top, just do what you’re told, work hard, and go with the flow; have your quarter-life identity crisis after you get your MBA and take that VP…

Rich people don’t have to decide a damn thing to end up on top, just do what you’re told, work hard, and go with the flow; have your quarter-life identity crisis after you get your MBA and take that VP job at GS

It's so true as a rich man, I never needed to study much. If I need to make a deal, I ask my rich friends/family members for a referral to a lawyer, most of the time the lawyer itself is a member of the extended family, at least that's what it feels like. So, if the task is outside his expertise, he recommends me a very good person. They completely dissect the problem and analyze it from multiple angles, I find their insights helpful much like the insights from Hacker news members.

Same way, we know most bankers by their face in our city. If I even see the slightest mark on my skin, I ask my family doctor and they offer me best recommendation.

Once upon a time I applied for a credit card but I defaulted on payment, not because of lack of cash but because I never studied how a credit card works. So, what I did? I just hired a guy with employment contract set out to prevent such losses due to high interests on a credit card etc... He works with my financial planner now.

If you read through my comments, you'll see how dumb I really am. But navigating life, making friends, marrying a beautiful woman is a lot easier for me than understanding credit card rules.

My sympathy with people who are stuck with same issues as me. In my family also there are only a few truly smart people, rest have inherited most of their wealth.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#54

Post by zeth___ » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 9:15 AM UTC

oldcynic wrote: post #34

zeth___ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

325 million people in the US. Give each person $10k so they can feed themselves and live in a tent. That's 3.25 trillion dollars. The total federal budget in 2015 was 3.8 trillion dollars [0]. After we disband the army, navy and air force, liquidate medicare, medicade and social security where do you think we should get the missing 1 trillion or so from? [0] https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bu…

How many under 18s in that 325m? UBI would be for those of working age would it not? I've seen arguments UBI should include pensioners, but never for it to include minors.

So if you only include 15-64 that is 200m [0]

But since you want to keep social security, medicaid and medicare you need to keep a budget that somehow has 2 trillion dollars for BUI and 2 trillion for pensioners and children.

Not much of an improvement really.

Which is my main issue with everyone who proposes UBI. Once they are shown the number you get by multiplying population by income they slowly start to reinvent the welfare state that somehow is so terrible it needs to be replaced with UBI.

As someone once said: Crypto-currencies are gods way of teaching libertarians why regulations exist in the financial sector. I would like to rephrase that: UBI is gods way of teaching libertarians why the welfare state was created.

[0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFWA64TTUSM647S

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#55

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 9:16 AM UTC

xstartup wrote: post #51

DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, one serious medical crisis can simultaneously make you exhausted and unable to think straight while plunging you into poverty that is nigh impossible to escape. For many Americans, the only bad life choice they made was being born here, then routine attrition took care of the rest because if you live long enough, you are pretty much guaranteed to have a serious health issue. It's just a matter of time.

In the US, one serious medical crisis can simultaneously make you exhausted and unable to think straight while plunging you into poverty that is nigh impossible to escape. In Europe, we've don't have healthcare issues - it's free here. Still, the people are unhappy and poor. Society as a whole is a lot more equal tho, I've friends who are very poor and ones who are very rich and I never sensed a discrimination.

I'm not sure someone from Europe can really grasp the kind of horrifying desperation of an American with a medical crisis. Americans have to wrestle with questions like "If I go and it's not serious, I'm screwed financially. If I don't go and it is serious, I'm screwed financially and in other ways." Especially if you are a parent. Not taking your kid for medical treatment can get you charged with neglect potentially.

It's just a really ugly situation that I have never actually faced and it puts me in a weird position. I've lived more like a European in some ways, because my father and ex were both career military.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#56

Post by cdoxsey » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 9:21 AM UTC

dd36 wrote: post #50

hueving wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is extremely wealthy though. Your benefits don't apply to citizens of Greece or other countries in the EU so it's not clear that it's a scalable solution. The US is very large, comparing it to a single country in Europe makes little sense. If you compare it to the EU itself you will see why there are so many disparate systems throughout the country.

The US is more wealthy. Moreover, perhaps Norway is wealthier because of its support systems.

Norway is wealthy because of oil: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_N...

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#57

Post by wutbrodo » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 9:23 AM UTC

dd36 wrote: post #50

hueving wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is extremely wealthy though. Your benefits don't apply to citizens of Greece or other countries in the EU so it's not clear that it's a scalable solution. The US is very large, comparing it to a single country in Europe makes little sense. If you compare it to the EU itself you will see why there are so many disparate systems throughout the country.

The US is more wealthy. Moreover, perhaps Norway is wealthier because of its support systems.

I'm a fairly strong believer in the second-order positive economic effects of social programs, but in the case of Norway, it's wealth is much more directly attributable to resource wealth in a first-world region.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#58

Post by saintPirelli » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 9:23 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

saintPirelli wrote: post #35

I guess this turns the discussion around poverty into a 'chicken and egg' discussion. Which one was first? One's poverty or one's inability to make good life choices? So conservatives will say the latter and liberals will say the first, because you've probably been oppressed by someone and we are already back at square one.

In the US, one serious medical crisis can simultaneously make you exhausted and unable to think straight while plunging you into poverty that is nigh impossible to escape. For many Americans, the only bad life choice they made was being born here, then routine attrition took care of the rest because if you live long enough, you are pretty much guaranteed to have a serious health issue. It's just a matter of time.

Yes, bad things happen to people. I absolutely agree. I fail to see how that statement is related to the article or my comment on it though.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#59

Post by saintPirelli » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 9:28 AM UTC

jl2718 wrote: post #39

saintPirelli wrote: post #35

I guess this turns the discussion around poverty into a 'chicken and egg' discussion. Which one was first? One's poverty or one's inability to make good life choices? So conservatives will say the latter and liberals will say the first, because you've probably been oppressed by someone and we are already back at square one.

There go those poor people with their defective brains making bad decisions again. Bullshit. Poor people make bad decisions because they have more opportunities to do so, and less opportunities to make good decisions. Rich people don’t have to decide a damn thing to end up on top, just do what you’re told, work hard, and go with the flow; have your quarter-life identity crisis after you get your MBA and take that VP…

Rich people have it easier, that shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody. But on the other hand it shouldn't come as a surprise either, that if you make decisions that propagate poverty, you will be more likely to end up poor.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#60

Post by glangdale » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 9:30 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #28

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is so much to gain by doing so, for everyon Not for everyone. For young people. The way we’ll get UBI is by repurposing Social Security and possibly Medicare funds for its purpose. That, in turn, requires millenials turn out to vote.

Here's the thing about the "young people" argument: the young, because time, live in a world built by the old. Everything from the physical infrastructure to the social institutions. So if paying for pensions is a wealth transfer from young to old, usage of the built environment is the opposite flow. In other words, the people who built say the roads did so for a package of renumeration that included a salary and a p…

This is an appealing argument, it's only flaw is that it is nonsensical.

The current 'old' also inherited a built environment and a great deal of basic research, and if you project back far enough (not far!) they barely paid anything for it either. Those working in the 40s and early 50s paid almost nothing (in terms of having to pay taxes for other people's benefits) for the infrastructure that they inherited.

It also somehow suggests that the bulk of historical economic activity was the development of long-lasting capital works that outlived the users, which is odd.

I think we already have enough spurious arguments for feather-bedding relatively well-off old people without inventing weird new ones. The monumental voting power of the old has ensured that they collectively do pretty well for themselves; astoundingly well, say, compared to children living in poverty.