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Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

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Re: Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

#51

Post by mhd »

hga wrote: post #26
mhd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They certainly know how to sell their database. Whether this translates into an equal success with their Sun IP has to be shown. The good thing for them is that they acquired pretty mature products, so they can probably "coast" along and still make a reasonable profit. It's still open whether they can foster enough innovation to keep things going with Java, Solaris… Their track record isn't very good in that respect.…

ZFS, however, is not in that category, and everything I've heard says that it needs more work and a lot more polish.

On the other hand, I think that file systems are closer to the heart of a database company than quite a lot of other Sun technologies (e.g. JavaFX). Oracle does sponsor btrfs – which is even more in its infancy.

Also, Jeff leaving doesn't necessarily mean that ZFS is dead to Oracle. Maybe he left because they decided to focus more on btrfs, maybe it's just a personal issue.

Re: Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

#52

Post by hga »

iuyfgtrghjk wrote: post #47
hga wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what James Gosling has said, perhaps Oracle's general HR policies just aren't compatible with retaining people at Jeff Bonwick's level. There could also be bureaucratic turf wars going on, i.e. the total loss of autonomy/decision making power that Gosling reported suggests that those already in Oracle are happy with how they run things and have no intention of sharing those responsibilities. One can also ima…

This happens everytime a company is taken over by a larger one. Except for a few VPs who are part of the M&A team - everyone at the smaller company always ends up beneath the same person at the larger one. Everyone in tech knows this - which is why everyone who can leaves before a 'merger'. And why you never hear of the innovative smaller company's work 6months after the takeover.

I'm not sure that's entirely true (well, except for the reporting thing). Some companies have a reputation for acquiring smaller companies with the express purpose of keeping their staff, e.g. Cisco (at least in times past) and Google.

But, yes, most of the time this is an important part of what makes the vast majority of high tech acquisitions fail miserably.

Re: Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

#53

Post by bad_user »

lzw wrote: post #21
etherael wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of that I have no doubt, but what I originally thought they would do; use their business resources mixed with Sun's engineering resources, does not appear to be their plan at all. They seem to be losing all of the best Sun engineering talent and do not seem at all concerned about about that fact. That leads me not to conclude they are failing at what I originally thought they were doing, but succeeding at something e…

They bought suns business. They will probably replace engineers and continue projects they like, they will lose engineers focused in products that are cut. I think part of suns problem was engineering that was going in for engineering sake, not business sake, and oracle is going to lose those engineers.

I don't know what businesses other people have collaborated with ... but to me the people behind the products I'm using matter a lot, I'm not dealing with faceless entities.

Personally that's precisely why I'm using Postgresql ... I can talk to the core team of developers and get their input whenever I feel like there's a problem with Postgresql. And for a web service we worked on, we even hired a Mysql developer to come and help us (was also on Sun's payroll at the time).

How could I trust a product based on ZFS or how could I trust them to build my products on top of Java or any of their Sun-derived solutions ... when the top talent that worked on those products left?

Not to mention I don't like hypocrites ... before the Sun acquisition they called on Sun to make the JCP more open. Is this an US thing? Can companies fuck with you because it's just business?

Oracle seems to me like a sweat shop. Nothing wrong with that and I'm glad they are making lots of money ... but in my shop you can get fired for suggesting Oracle products, and it's not just me, there's a whole generation of software developers that won't touch their cash cows.

There's a whole generation of developer that have chosen Mysql or Postgres or implemented their own shit, and did not go for Oracle's DB ... that's revenue and opportunities lost for them, and I'm only seeing this trend getting stronger.

Re: Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

#54

Post by earl »

hga wrote: post #52
iuyfgtrghjk wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens everytime a company is taken over by a larger one. Except for a few VPs who are part of the M&A team - everyone at the smaller company always ends up beneath the same person at the larger one. Everyone in tech knows this - which is why everyone who can leaves before a 'merger'. And why you never hear of the innovative smaller company's work 6months after the takeover.

I'm not sure that's entirely true (well, except for the reporting thing). Some companies have a reputation for acquiring smaller companies with the express purpose of keeping their staff, e.g. Cisco (at least in times past) and Google. But, yes, most of the time this is an important part of what makes the vast majority of high tech acquisitions fail miserably.

Even G often seems to perform quite poorly. Viz Dodgeball / 4square. Thoroughly alienating Dennis Crowley seems like an enormous mistake. Or Paul Buchheit. Or the Delicious guy who worked at G but didn't find it a welcoming environment. If they were serious about social, they'd do whatever it takes to keep people like Joshua who've built successful social products.

I'm coming around to Zuckerberg's opinion that social is something a company is built around, not something you staple on or buy after the fact.

Re: Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

#55

Post by Goladus »

hga wrote: post #25
lsc wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's it. Every corporation thinks of its employees in a dollars and cents kind of way. The operative problem here seems to be that Oracle doesn't value senior technical resources as much as some other companies might, or as much as those resources are used to being valued (and really, few people react well to a cut in autonomy, pay or respect.) They aren't willing to invest what is required, probably…

Based on what James Gosling has said, as a Sun Fellow Jeff Bonwick would have experienced a significant compensation cut and loss of autonomy (near total of the latter for Gosling). Which most people will interpret as a lack of respect. As many others have wondered in this set of comments and others, just what is Oracle's cunning plan to make their purchase of Sun worth the investment???

Charging more for Solaris support and providing less of it, for starters.

Re: Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

#56

Post by rbanffy »

Goladus wrote: post #55
hga wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what James Gosling has said, as a Sun Fellow Jeff Bonwick would have experienced a significant compensation cut and loss of autonomy (near total of the latter for Gosling). Which most people will interpret as a lack of respect. As many others have wondered in this set of comments and others, just what is Oracle's cunning plan to make their purchase of Sun worth the investment???

Charging more for Solaris support and providing less of it, for starters.

And thus making it compete with a product that's freely available.

I don't think that will work.

It would work if Solaris was something people really desired. Right now, it's not. People are very happy with Linux and need some incentive to move to Solaris. Paying more is not a good one.

Re: Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

#57

Post by rbanffy »

earl wrote: post #54
hga wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's entirely true (well, except for the reporting thing). Some companies have a reputation for acquiring smaller companies with the express purpose of keeping their staff, e.g. Cisco (at least in times past) and Google. But, yes, most of the time this is an important part of what makes the vast majority of high tech acquisitions fail miserably.

Even G often seems to perform quite poorly. Viz Dodgeball / 4square. Thoroughly alienating Dennis Crowley seems like an enormous mistake. Or Paul Buchheit. Or the Delicious guy who worked at G but didn't find it a welcoming environment. If they were serious about social, they'd do whatever it takes to keep people like Joshua who've built successful social products. I'm coming around to Zuckerberg's opinion that socia…

> Or the Delicious guy who worked at G

This comes across very weird...

I know... Wrong website for jokes like these. Couldn't help.

Re: Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

#58

Post by rbanffy »

sgt wrote: post #33
alphabeat wrote: post #8

I'm really uncertain now of the future of Illumos and ZFS. I hope there's more push behind these projects as well as BTRFS. Will be interesting to see where this goes.

I think the future of Illumos is safe. They've already got a lot of heavy-weighters behind it, ex-Sun/Oracle and others.

Someone still has to fund them...

Re: Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

#59

Post by hga »

rbanffy wrote: post #56
Goladus wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charging more for Solaris support and providing less of it, for starters.

And thus making it compete with a product that's freely available. I don't think that will work. It would work if Solaris was something people really desired. Right now, it's not. People are very happy with Linux and need some incentive to move to Solaris. Paying more is not a good one.

And don't forget that no-longer-OpenSolaris is still freely available ... and might even become something now that it's free of the dead hand of Sun (at least for it being a truly "open" project).

I for one am not happy with Linux and would love to run Open/whateverSolaris ... if it has serious driver support. That's been the Achilles heal of x86 Solaris for more than a decade (e.g. something I directly experienced in 1999) and fixing that will likely be a determining factor in its future success.

Unfortunately that's very painful hard work and lots of it, I wouldn't predict success on general principles. But one can hope.

Re: Creator of ZFS, Jeff Bonwick, leaves Oracle

#60

Post by hga »

mhd wrote: post #51
hga wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ZFS, however, is not in that category, and everything I've heard says that it needs more work and a lot more polish.

On the other hand, I think that file systems are closer to the heart of a database company than quite a lot of other Sun technologies (e.g. JavaFX). Oracle does sponsor btrfs – which is even more in its infancy. Also, Jeff leaving doesn't necessarily mean that ZFS is dead to Oracle. Maybe he left because they decided to focus more on btrfs, maybe it's just a personal issue.

Indeed, 20 years at one company is a long time, plus his personal financial upside became strictly capped to salary once Sun was assimilated by Oracle. There's all sorts of reasons he might jump at a new opportunity, many of which don't mean the end of ZFS.
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