Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia • Hacker News Board

Re: Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia

#51

Post by the_af » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 2:53 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #39

the_af wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can say "I don't find most Chinese women attractive". Or I can say "Chinese women are so ugly, I cannot understand how people manage to reproduce in China". Do you see the difference? One statement is not racist and the other is.

Actually both are not racist. Both are subjective statements. One needs not explicitly add "I, personally" to his personal correspondence. "Chinese women are so ugly, I cannot understand how people manage to reproduce in China" should be read as: "I find Chinese women so ugly, that I cannot understand how people manage to reproduce in China".

I don't understand your point.

It's understood that in personal correspondence everything stated is the opinion of the author. Both my fictional examples were written from a personal point of view.

The actual difference was that one expressed a personal preference without being offensive; the other called a vast group of people "ugly", which is offensive, and expressed incredulity that they even managed to find each other sexually attractive enough to reproduce (which is naive as well as offensive).

Racism is primarily subjective, so that's no excuse either. Rational justifications for racism are more often than not a posteriori justifications.

Re: Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia

#52

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 2:54 PM UTC

It goes unnoted in the article, but you could probably get an entire second piece out of the phrase "...defending themselves against the formidable blessing of offspring."

At the time it was written, Einstein had three children (though his first child's story is basically unknown, and she was either adopted or died in infancy). He was also divorced from their mother, with whom both his sons lived, but corresponded with them throughout their lives. I'd be rather interested to see an ambivalent comment like "formidable blessing" put in the context of these relationships.

Re: Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia

#53

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #10

SZJX wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also addressed in the original article: > Rosenkranz told the Guardian that although views like Einstein’s were prevalent at the time, they were not universal. “That’s usually the reaction I get – ‘we have to understand, he was of the zeitgeist, part of the time’ – but I think I tried here and there to give a broader context. There were other views out there, more tolerant views,” he said.

Einstein was a great physicist, but I’m not looking to him for moral guidance. If he was awful for his time that would be sad, but if he’s merely average, I don’t see why we’d care.

> I’m not looking to him for moral guidance

I suppose this is the question. Einstein is certainly more known for his moral legacy than most scientists.

He was a WWII refugee and a pacifist, he authored (and later regretted) the letter sparking US nuclear ambitions, he joined the NAACP and his offer of testimony in W.E.B. DuBois' trial led to the charges against him being dropped. To me, this isn't merely the halo effect around his academic work - Einstein was at least a modest player in morality and social politics in his time, and his work fighting racism in the US does add particular relevance to the story.

I agree, though, that the story is already being overblown; we're getting news stories with Einstein's picture edited to look demonic. This is a scientist's diary from the 1920s containing views less racist than ones openly stated by US politicians from the last 50 years.

Re: Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia

#54

Post by true_religion » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #51

coldtea wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually both are not racist. Both are subjective statements. One needs not explicitly add "I, personally" to his personal correspondence. "Chinese women are so ugly, I cannot understand how people manage to reproduce in China" should be read as: "I find Chinese women so ugly, that I cannot understand how people manage to reproduce in China".

I don't understand your point. It's understood that in personal correspondence everything stated is the opinion of the author. Both my fictional examples were written from a personal point of view. The actual difference was that one expressed a personal preference without being offensive; the other called a vast group of people "ugly", which is offensive, and expressed incredulity that they even managed to find each…

If racism were subjective, we wouldn't ban it in the public scope as there would be no clear standard for anyone to follow in their self-censorship.

Racism should reflect an attribute that can be factually proven---intelligence, strength, moral character at birth, etc.

It should not reflect a totally subjective physical attribute like beauty.

Re: Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia

#55

Post by true_religion » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

It strikes me as odd that anytime a person references a characteristic of some people from some particular country, it is generalized into racism against all people who even vaguely look like them so long as the people in question are not white.

If one says "the French are cowards", no one takes it to mean that you believe that all white people are cowards.

This is true even if the speaker is not white themselves, but merely living in a 'white' country.

To me, this means that no statement really stands on its own, but we constantly filter it through our lens of expectations, and current context. Given that, it's hard to look at someone from the past---a fundamentally alien context---then damn them using modern morals.

---

As a personal example of how we see racism within an implicit context, this poster[1], mentions "negroes" and my immediate feeling is to damn him for racism as in the modern era using that terminology is a sign of racism.

This is despite the fact that my CV could list me as a beneficiary of the Negro College Fund.

20 years ago, the term "coloured" was considered racist to some segments of the USA. Any variations of it, would be simiarly damned. Now, we are all people "of colour" as an accepted truth, and using 'black' is seen as vulgar, and 'african american' is seen inaccurate. Context matters immensely in these topics.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17303571

Re: Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia

#56

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 3:58 PM UTC

mooseburger wrote: post #18

the_af wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shock at different toilet habits is actually the least racist and more understandable reaction. But some of his assertions are indefensible: > “I noticed how little difference there is between men and women; I don’t understand what kind of fatal attraction Chinese women possess which enthrals the corresponding men to such an extent that they are incapable of defending themselves against the formidable blessing of off…

Those statements boil down to "I think Chinese people are ugly". Do men have a moral obligation to find women of all races beautiful?

[deleted]

Re: Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia

#57

Post by threatofrain » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:01 PM UTC

liveoneggs wrote: post #9

After your death all of your life's browser history, every facebook/youtube/reddit/HN/myspace/etc comment and submission you ever wrote, every photo you ever took, every off-hand remark you ever made in the presence of a smartphone with facebook installed .. will be published for all of the world to read and judge. Better get that road rage under wraps!

That also assumes that society will never learn proportionality in judgment, and always come down on people as if everyone were godlike. Hopefully future society will learn to exercise context, grace, and proportionality in an age of permanent memory.

Re: Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia

#58

Post by coldtea » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #51

coldtea wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually both are not racist. Both are subjective statements. One needs not explicitly add "I, personally" to his personal correspondence. "Chinese women are so ugly, I cannot understand how people manage to reproduce in China" should be read as: "I find Chinese women so ugly, that I cannot understand how people manage to reproduce in China".

I don't understand your point. It's understood that in personal correspondence everything stated is the opinion of the author. Both my fictional examples were written from a personal point of view. The actual difference was that one expressed a personal preference without being offensive; the other called a vast group of people "ugly", which is offensive, and expressed incredulity that they even managed to find each…

>It's understood that in personal correspondence everything stated is the opinion of the author. Both my fictional examples were written from a personal point of view.

Having established that...

>The actual difference was that one expressed a personal preference without being offensive; the other called a vast group of people "ugly", which is offensive

My point is that racism is not about being offensive (or not) in one's subjective opinions. Being rude is not the same as being a racist -- even if the characteristics you're rude about belong to a race of people.

>Rational justifications for racism are more often than not a posteriori justifications.

They might be, but without them there's no racism. Just personal preference or dislike, which people are entitled to.

"Freedonians look ugly" is not racist. "Freedonians are genetically inferior" is.

Even saying "freedonians are stupid" is borderline, because they might indeed be by the criteria of the one making that statement (e.g. they might value leisure, where the one making the statement might think that it's smarter to be productive).

Re: Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia

#59

Post by the_af » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:17 PM UTC

true_religion wrote: post #54

the_af wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your point. It's understood that in personal correspondence everything stated is the opinion of the author. Both my fictional examples were written from a personal point of view. The actual difference was that one expressed a personal preference without being offensive; the other called a vast group of people "ugly", which is offensive, and expressed incredulity that they even managed to find each…

If racism were subjective, we wouldn't ban it in the public scope as there would be no clear standard for anyone to follow in their self-censorship. Racism should reflect an attribute that can be factually proven---intelligence, strength, moral character at birth, etc. It should not reflect a totally subjective physical attribute like beauty.

I've never heard your definition of racism ("attributes that can be factually proven"?). In my experience, racism is subjective and every rationalization is done afterwards. How often have you heard of someone convincing an avowed racist of anything based on arguments?

"I've always thought were dumb, weak, morally bankrupt, and have brought decadence to our country, but now that I look at this scientific study I'm convinced otherwise".

Re: Einstein's travel diaries reveal attitudes towards people he met in Asia

#60

Post by devnonymous » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:11 PM UTC

the_gastropod wrote: post #35

This is one of those examples of holding a man born in the 19th century to the standards of the 21st. I'm pretty sure lots of the things we think, say, and do will be seen as very problematic in the 22nd century.

Indeed. I hope someday people would hold as much disdain and shock as this for statements justifying/rationalising things like gun ownership, immense private wealth when others around you suffer and need for private transport.