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Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

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Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#51

Post by pwinnski »

pavlov wrote: post #25
pwinnski wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the "Baja" in this case (or its lack in the USA) is like the compromise, "North" Macedonia. The situations would be more analogous if the Mexican state were called simply "California" or the US state were called "Baja California."

In both cases, the bigger and more powerful side got to keep the plain name and the other side had to settle for a geographic prefix.

As I understand it, both sides had prefixes: Baja and Alta. After the US took Alta California, they dropped that prefix. Mexico was never forced to add one.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#52

Post by Keyframe »

reaperducer wrote: post #50
Keyframe wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw it as my duty to notify you of something offensive you've said. I don't have to be 'them' to know that. Take it as you will.

I saw it as my duty to notify you of something offensive you've said. I said nothing offensive. You're so interested in SJW-championing other people's causes to make yourself feel morally superior that you didn't even bother to notice that I'm not the OC. Take it as you will. I don't need your permission.

I'm glad you know me so well, we should hang out. Then we can talk about my involvement with macedonian (and bulgarian and greek) people, historians, politicians, film workers and 'common people' over the past few years while I was working on a TV series regarding the topic we are currently discussing. Can't wait to tell you about albanian position within republic today and how that story trumps over what we're talking about here, regarding Greece and even Bulgaria. Also, how important Macedonia (as an entity) is to the whole region and how key people and things developed there which influenced world politics. How special relations Bulgaria has with Macedonia (VRMO for example, which is key to Bulgaria and where M stands for Macedonia) and lots of other interesting things.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#53

Post by dghughes »

pavlov wrote: post #11
chadash wrote: post #6

This is pay-walled, but here's a summary: The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because "Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Repub…

Instead of Maine, you can find a better analogy at the opposite end of the United States. There’s a Mexican state named Baja California and a US state named simply California. Exact same thing as this Macedonia business.

I know this is always unpopular but, how about the name America?

I refer to the country south of me as "the US" or "the USA". To me as a Canadian I live in the Americas so I could be an American. Growing up nobody I knew called the US "America" you'd even hear "the Boston States", I have no clue how that originated.

But I've noticed over the past decade or two it's become more common for people in the US to refer to their country as America. I know it's a shortened form but still, to me, it's weird because:

Europe, Europeans Africa, Africans Asia, Asians Americas, ? (demonym for people of the entire region?)

I know some people counter with it's "North America dummy!" but wouldn't that mean the USA should be the USNA?

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#54

Post by gwbas1c »

mkempe wrote: post #10
pavlov wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should Massachusetts change its name because the Massachusett people are not an ethnic majority there? Just like US states, most European borders are not drawn according to ethnic groups, and their names are similarly historical rather than descriptive. The nation state is a 19th century fantasy.

Are there three other "Massachusetts"-named states bordering the current Massachusetts? [edit] Maine is not called "North Massachusetts". As for your belief that European borders are unrelated to ethnic/cultural distinctions, do you know much about Europe? [edit: blocked from replying] Were there truly no pre-19th century differences between the peoples and cultures in Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Russia? and no-pre…

Maine used to be part of Massachusetts.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#55

Post by JumpCrisscross »

interdrift wrote: post #47
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #9

I have been to Northern Greece. I have friends from Macedonia. This is the stupidest international dispute I think our reality can support.

No, it's not as stupid as you might think. FYROM was part of Bulgaria for a very long time. Lots of history of the empires happend there, they claim that it's theirs. Same for Alexander Macedon(he's obviously greek). If you claim some identity in front of many people you must be able to support it otherwise you end up looking like a fool. Imagine a nation of such deluded by the system people.

> Same for Alexander Macedon (he's obviously greek)

Alexander III of Macedon died in 323 B.C. That's 2,300 years ago. Turning a millennium-and-a-half footnote into a geopolitical issue is stupid.

> If you claim some identity in front of many people you must be able to support it otherwise you end up looking like a fool

Greece's per-capita GDP is three-quarters that of Europe's average [1]. Macedonia's is less than one-third that of Greece's. This is a stupid thing for two poor countries to create economic, political and geopolitical hurdles out of.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Eu...

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#57

Post by Keyframe »

salex89 wrote: post #38
mkempe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could understand them wanting to mark their differences from Serbia, but Bulgaria was the reference point for the emergence of Macedonian nationalism when the Ottomans were pushed out. Do you have references for such anti-Bulgarian sentiment?

Serb here, not sure why would anyone "mix up" macedonians and serbs in any context, and why is a bigger differentiation necessary. Even in the bloodiest years on the Balkans, the relations were very reasonable. Today in Serbia, even the most nationalistic groups (of any kind of influence), don't take Northern Macedonia in discussion. The relations between Bulgaria and Macedonia were a bit more bumpy, I don't know all…

It's maybe important to note that these disputes (and possible disputes) with Bulgaria, Greece and maybe(?) Serbia have almost none impact whatsoever on the daily lives of anyone in the region there. No animosity, no nothing basically apart from politically organised rallies here and there. Situation with albanians on the other hand... is interesting.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#58

Post by salex89 »

stoic_beard wrote: post #20
salex89 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only guess because around a quarter of the population is Albanian, and they currently (and probably will also in the future) constitute the parliamentary majority. The Albanian population is currently in a surge, and Albanians don't really like to be mixed up with Slavs...

"Around a quarter of the population is Albanian" - is this also your educated guess, or something you "read" online? The FACT is that the last Census was done in 2002. According to conservative estimates pulled from the Health Ministry, there are less than 20% of Albanians currently residing on the territory of Macedonia. And a little free lesson in history for you: The Slavs you are referring to, in the 6th century…

Not sure where did you pull out that number, I've downloaded the report from the Macedonian Statistics Office and double-checked what I googled out.

I'm pretty much aware of that history lesson, thanks. How does that change what I wrote initially?

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#59

Post by interdrift »

Keyframe wrote: post #49
interdrift wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can only say that we have 95% the same language with a few letters inserted by the serbs. If you look at both greek and albanian languages it's easy to see that they are VERY different than ours. Now, whoever tries to convince you otherwise, is wrong and it's not hard to conclude that given this language similarity and no nearby such similarity it's easy to figure out their origin :)

I don't know. It seems to be dangerous to paint broad strokes like that. My immediate heritage is german, italian and croatian and am from Croatia, speak croatian and live there/here. Yet, I understand 90% of macedonian and probably 70% of bulgarian without ever learning either language. Where is the line then? Since I was born here and learned this language as my first, yet not anyone from my family (grandparents an…

Bulgarian and Macedonian are way similar than say Croatian and Macedonian. Genetically we are the same. Your example is not on point(both about Sofia and your origin)

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#60

Post by interdrift »

mkempe wrote: post #36
stereo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a Luxembourg province in Belgium, right next to the country Luxembourg. Nobody gives a damn.

The European powers certainly did at the time of the division between the province and the city-state, since its disputed status almost led to a huge continental war in the aftermath of the Belgian revolution and the creation of the city-state was the resulting compromise.

"Nobody gives a damn, he said" haha
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