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Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

phasenoise.livejournal.com

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Re: Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

#51
post #46

I used to always be pro-consumer in cases where the manufacturer does something like that to clones (Salae and FTDI cases) After slowly getting into the manufacturing game myself and after USPS auctioned some of my cute early engineering samples that ended up on ebay, I definitely think this is totally reasonable from the manufacturer. Also the title of the article is already attacking the manufacturer. If you brick…

i'm curious to hear more about your story!

if i'm understanding you correctly, the postal service somehow ended up in possession of your early prototypes and they sold them to somebody who then re-listed them on ebay. was this a lost parcel situation?

Re: Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im pretty sure Apple does the same for their device — they have to be activated by Apple after they have left the factory so that they can be used.

Can still harvest them for spare parts. A strong market Apple created by making OEM spare parts hard to buy. At least until Apple totally shuts down DIY repairs by authenticating the LCD, MAC, keyboard etc. upon startup.

If it means someone is deterred from stabbing me in the street just to get my phone then sure, why not?

Re: Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

#53

Wouldn’t it be pretty trivial to remove the blacklisting code? It’s not like this is a cellphone sold to my mom. It’s an extremely specialist product aimed at a group of users with vast electronics and reverse engineering knowledge. Probably won’t be long before one of them reverse engineers the device and releases the code to ignore the blacklisting. Anyone know the technical details of how the blacklisting works?

If you unintentionally buy a blacklisted phone online, do you try to break the blacklist or report the seller and get a refund?

The blacklisting code is in every device, even those sold legitimately. That is, the device “phones home.” Some users may not be okay with that.

In my experience, the kind of person who buys an SDR is (a) unlikely to appreciate a $400 device that phones home on boot, and (b) likely to reverse engineer the blacklisting code simply for the fun of it.

Re: Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

#54

I can't bring myself to be bothered by this - and wouldn't be even if I were using these devices. For crying out loud, equipment with unique recorded serial numbers was stolen, so the company is blocking the specific stolen devices. That makes perfect sense to me. Objecting to how they do it (bulking up software with a list of serials, requiring software to phone home, whatever) is fine and their customers have a leg…

How far can we take this? Theft is a big deal for manufacturers. They spend good money on preventing it. But will they continue to spend good money on prevention if instead they can just brick any lost devices? The nightmare is a manufacturer turning to a whitelist model, one where post-purchase the consumer must legitimize their purchase before use of the device. That DRM. There is massive overlap between the commun…

While I agree with you mostly, this is really a basic issue - devices stolen from the manufacturer are still owned by the manufacturer. They are, and should be, free to do with them however they please. It's a basic question of ownership and control over one's property in here.

Re: Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far can we take this? Theft is a big deal for manufacturers. They spend good money on preventing it. But will they continue to spend good money on prevention if instead they can just brick any lost devices? The nightmare is a manufacturer turning to a whitelist model, one where post-purchase the consumer must legitimize their purchase before use of the device. That DRM. There is massive overlap between the commun…

While I agree with you mostly, this is really a basic issue - devices stolen from the manufacturer are still owned by the manufacturer. They are, and should be, free to do with them however they please. It's a basic question of ownership and control over one's property in here.

I'd have to know more about the "theft". I suspect that this wasn't a robbery in the dead of night.

UCC § 2-403 states: When goods have been delivered under a transaction of purchase the purchaser has such power even though ... the delivery was procured through fraud punishable as larcenous under the criminal law.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-403

Basically, if an employee to other person who was "entrusted" with these goods by the manufacturer sells them, then innocent purchasers take full legal title. The good-faith purchaser is now the legal owner even if they purchased the goods from someone who wasn't a legal owner. The goods don not belong to the manufacturer. This is specifically to protect innocent people from debates between manufacturers and distributors, even where those distributors have stolen goods.

The knock-on effect of this is that people who buy things in good faith from distributors don't have to worry about manufacturers (or police) raiding their homes ... which appears to be exactly what this manufacturer is doing by bricking these devices.

Re: Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you mostly, this is really a basic issue - devices stolen from the manufacturer are still owned by the manufacturer. They are, and should be, free to do with them however they please. It's a basic question of ownership and control over one's property in here.

I'd have to know more about the "theft". I suspect that this wasn't a robbery in the dead of night. UCC § 2-403 states: When goods have been delivered under a transaction of purchase the purchaser has such power even though ... the delivery was procured through fraud punishable as larcenous under the criminal law. https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-403 Basically, if an employee to other person who was "entrusted" wi…

So does this mean the people who were fraudulently sold the Brooklyn bridge actually own it?

Re: Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you mostly, this is really a basic issue - devices stolen from the manufacturer are still owned by the manufacturer. They are, and should be, free to do with them however they please. It's a basic question of ownership and control over one's property in here.

I'd have to know more about the "theft". I suspect that this wasn't a robbery in the dead of night. UCC § 2-403 states: When goods have been delivered under a transaction of purchase the purchaser has such power even though ... the delivery was procured through fraud punishable as larcenous under the criminal law. https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-403 Basically, if an employee to other person who was "entrusted" wi…

That's not what the law states.

It actually says:

(1) A purchaser of goods acquires all title which his transferor had or had power to transfer except that a purchaser of a limited interest acquires rights only to the extent of the interest purchased.

The part you're quoting refers to the recipient being the fraud, not the seller. The recipient never acquires more rights than the seller had. This is why stolen goods can be seized by police, even from innocent purchasers.

[Edit:] Actually more complicated than that. The provision contemplates the middle-man acquired the rights to the goods sold through fraudulent means. In this case, it still requires the middle-man to have acquired the rights from the original seller in a transaction in which the seller gave up the rights to the goods. I.e., theft by fraud would suffice but mere theft would not. It's hard to explain theft by fraud. In a nutshell, the original seller is deceived as to one or more details of the transaction itself, such as price, identify of the seller, or even as to what they are exchanging. The UCC expects all parties to a contract governed by the UCC to exercise due diligence with respect to a contract, so if the transaction includes the "stolen" goods, the UCC doesn't provide any relief. Generally in a situation like this, it would happen where the language of the transaction clearly would include the goods at issue, but the middleman misrepresents to the original seller that those goods aren't included in the contract.

Re: Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

#58
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have to know more about the "theft". I suspect that this wasn't a robbery in the dead of night. UCC § 2-403 states: When goods have been delivered under a transaction of purchase the purchaser has such power even though ... the delivery was procured through fraud punishable as larcenous under the criminal law. https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-403 Basically, if an employee to other person who was "entrusted" wi…

So does this mean the people who were fraudulently sold the Brooklyn bridge actually own it?

No, because the fraudsters weren't entrusted with the bridge.

Re: Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

#59
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/08/can-you-get-arrest... If you buy stolen good, you don't get to keep them. These are stolen goods, why would you ever expect the company to simply allow you to use it?

I take issue with the fact that the company has any say in the matter at all, tbh. I dislike devices that phone home and can be disabled remotely as a matter of principle. But you're right, in the end they are stolen goods.

> I take issue with the fact that the company has any say in the matter at all, tbh.

What? How does that make any sense. Someone stole their property, it's still theirs, of course they have a say in what happens to it. "Finders Keepers" is not how the world works...

Re: Manufacturer 'make worthless' users devices after some stolen from a warehouse

#60
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have to know more about the "theft". I suspect that this wasn't a robbery in the dead of night. UCC § 2-403 states: When goods have been delivered under a transaction of purchase the purchaser has such power even though ... the delivery was procured through fraud punishable as larcenous under the criminal law. https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-403 Basically, if an employee to other person who was "entrusted" wi…

So does this mean the people who were fraudulently sold the Brooklyn bridge actually own it?

No. It has to be things that someone can clearly possess, something movable. The seller also has to be someone authorized to possess the thing and deals with such things regularly.

The standard scenario: You take your guitar to a music store to be fixed. Some evil sale guy at the store instead deliberately sells your guitar. Your issue is now with the store. You cannot go after the guy who bought and is how holding "your" guitar. It isn't yours anymore. You have to sue the store for money and the store is free to try and buy the guitar back.

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