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Trouble with Diaspora

blog.steveklabnik.com

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Re: Trouble with Diaspora

#51

Post by com »

latch wrote: post #6
cilantro wrote: post #3

This code was released to developers as an incomplete preview. I'm not sure why people are holding it to the same standards as a finished product that's being released to end users. Seems like a pretext to talk trash.

I haven't looked at the code, so I can't say this is the case, but... There's some stuff that good/experienced developers do upfront naturally. There are some security, design and performance things that are clearly a case of bad development versus "this is an early release". Fundamentals.

"Bad development" sounds like some kind of phrase from a 1950's development model.

"Fundamentals" are things like: there's no identifiable data model, the code is pure spaghetti and structure is a fleeting concept.

From my very quick scan of their code, it's readable, the parts of the data model I looked at are fairly obvious (thanks Rails), dependencies are identified, crypto seems fairly localised. Correction of bugs seems definitely doable. Extra features shouldn't require a total refactoring. Looks good to me for an alpha drop.

Next up: posts criticising the spelling in the comments in the Diaspora code.

Re: Trouble with Diaspora

#52

Post by Maro »

jokermatt999 wrote: post #47
Maro wrote: post #42

At least somebody's got a sense of humor: Github issue #8: "Facebook has a majority market share" http://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues#issue/8

If you didn't catch it, it's referring to Ubuntu Bug #1: Microsoft has a majority market share https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1

I saw that. But it's still funny =)

Re: Trouble with Diaspora

#53

Post by steveklabnik »

Please see the discussion from last night: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1699641

Rather than type a bunch of replies to everyone, here's some random thoughts:

1. Release early, release often is great. But when your product's main focus is "a private social network where you control your data" and other people can do anything they'd like with your account...

2. If this was just unpolished, I wouldn't say anything. But like patio11 is saying, this has been covered by major news outlets, and many non-technical people are getting involved. This is a plea to pay attention to the fact that it's pre-alpha software.

3. The mistakes are beyond amateur. This isn't "omg it's not perfect," this is "I can't believe they didn't even apply the basics." The reason that this matters is that it doesn't bode well for the future of the project. If they can't even get this correct, how am I supposed to trust them later?

4. I only complain because I care. I want this project to succeed, and I really like a lot about the interface, actually. But that doesn't mean I won't call a spade a spade.

Re: Trouble with Diaspora

#54

Post by tolmasky »

cilantro wrote: post #3

This code was released to developers as an incomplete preview. I'm not sure why people are holding it to the same standards as a finished product that's being released to end users. Seems like a pretext to talk trash.

I don't think this article was that mean spirited. The author did submit patches, and is planning on submitting more patches. I interpreted it as a concerned party that wants the project to succeed and is thus pointing out a very real concern, asking others to help, and is himself helping.

Re: Trouble with Diaspora

#55

Post by astine »

citricsquid wrote: post #36
gloob wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft didn't "build security in at the start", nor did Apple, nor did Twitter, nor (I suspect) did Facebook or YouTube. It's a pre-alpha of an open source project. Of course there will be problems.

Yeah and how much code is being used now that existed when they didn't have security? You can't compare this and what Microsoft, Apple or Twitter have done, I'd be very surprised if any of those companies continue to use code that was developed at a time when they didn't consider security. Although thinking about it, the software industry is questionable... maybe I'm wrong, it just seems a very bad start. Twitter has…

What's the likely hood, security issues asside, that much of this code ends up in the 'final' Diaspora product down the line? I might misunderstand their intentions, but as I understand them, these guys are trying to start an open-source project. Open-source projects need momentum before they need anything else. Money is a start, but they need code. It doesn't even need to good code or even passable, so long as it kind of works and provides something for hackers to hack on. If they play their cards right, it's that last bit about attracting hackers to the project that will turn Diaspora into something viable. None of the code they write right now really matters.

Just think of many of the older more established FOSS projects, Linux, Apache, etc. Many of them started out very rough, but attracted developers and turned into something useful. I think that dumping the code right now, was probably the best move that they could have made.

Re: Trouble with Diaspora

#56

Post by 10ren »

It's an MVP. Problem is, it's in an established market. Although this worked for open source in the established unix market, that wasn't a mainstream market. But note: only a tiny subset of users are going to switch initially anyway, so, in practice, it's not mainstream at all. Besides, expert coders will contribute; I've seen it happen.

And it's infinitely better than the alternative, of getting everything right first time, because that's impossible. Something is better than nothing. Live it!

Re: Trouble with Diaspora

#57

Post by jlgbecom »

kennedywm wrote: post #37
jlgbecom wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And more importantly, if you're going to rewrite, why help Diaspora, and not a more mature option?

Because momentum and attention are more important than maturity. The qualities that come from maturity can be built with work; momentum and attention aren't as much of a function of hard work and are far more difficult to capture.

Momentum can die as fast as it builds, while maturity is lasting. All these projects are in active development, and it'll be very difficult for Diaspora to catch up.

Re: Trouble with Diaspora

#58

Post by Maro »

steveklabnik wrote: post #53

Please see the discussion from last night: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1699641 Rather than type a bunch of replies to everyone, here's some random thoughts: 1. Release early, release often is great. But when your product's main focus is "a private social network where you control your data" and other people can do anything they'd like with your account... 2. If this was just unpolished, I wouldn't say anythin…

"The mistakes are beyond amateur."

Can you pinpoint them? I don't think it makes sense not to at this point..

Re: Trouble with Diaspora

#59

Post by ohyes »

Maro wrote: post #48
ohyes wrote: post #39

This code was written by a bunch of undergraduate college students. This is hiring a bunch of interns (with near zero experience) to implement your product, giving them three months, and then being shocked -- SHOCKED, when the code is not professional grade quality. I was shocked when everyone and their brother was willing to shell out money to a group of completely unproven college students to produce a distributed…

If they re-write, given that they're fairly inexperienced but are probably still sitting on a pile of cash, they run into the Second System Effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect

"when following on from a relatively small, elegant, and successful system."

I don't think that the second system effect applies, specifically given that it isn't elegant or successful yet. (In fact, most of the comments are that it is inelegant and a failure).

Second system effect mostly reflects the evils of redesigning a perfectly good working product.

Re: Trouble with Diaspora

#60

Post by jat850 »

10ren wrote: post #56

It's an MVP. Problem is, it's in an established market. Although this worked for open source in the established unix market, that wasn't a mainstream market. But note: only a tiny subset of users are going to switch initially anyway, so, in practice, it's not mainstream at all. Besides, expert coders will contribute; I've seen it happen. And it's infinitely better than the alternative, of getting everything right fir…

The "V" in MVP stands for viable.

As is, the Diaspora code base is not viable. Not even minimally so.

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