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Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

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Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#51

If you take enough acid, it can become incredibly difficult to perceive the passage of time with eyes closed. On one of my higher doses, I was in such an uncomfortable state of mental agitation, fetal position under my covers, that I tried killing time by playing a game of pretending hours were passing when I closed my eyes, and I could briefly believe it until an external sound clued me back in. Changes in spatial p…

This all makes so much sense, because I (having never done drugs) have a constellation of perceptual issues which all relate to this. I believe I have a congenital mutation in these kinds of beat-tracking and spatial orienting cells (it runs in my family). My mother (who grew up in the 60s) always says, of the few times she tried these substances, "Why would you take something to feel this way? I can experience these things normally, I wish I could take something to not be like this."

My main thing is with time; in the absence of other people / external factors forcing me to be synchronized, my subjective sense of time is "wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff". That is, I might subjectively experience a few minutes as if it is a very long time (like the subconscious dimension in Inception) or conversely I might be doing a task and think only a minute passed and it was an hour.

Sometimes when I close my eyes I experience a sense being an ant in a tiny room versus being the size of Galactus in a solar system sized room, and then warping back and forth like looking backwards through a telescope. That is, the relative scaled distances remain the same but the subjective sense of absolute scale starts to oscillate.

I have amazing visualization skills for reasoning about spaces and machines that I'm not inside of, it's like a CAD program in my mind, but I'm fundamentally unable to track my own location in space. If I walk through a building and take two quarter turns, my ability to reason about where I came from and what's what direction folds over itself in on itself like the collapse of that 4D hypercube house in the Heinlein short story.

The connection to tracking beats was already apparent to me from experience: although I enjoy music, I subjectively experience lengthening and shortening in the time signature even on the scale of between beats in an 8 count. I actually had not understood that music had a beat until I went to a Zumba class for a few weeks and said, "OK I have just one question: how does everyone know WHEN to move?" I had to have someone tap my shoulder on every beat, and the multi-sensory experience like that allowed me to understand what the beat in music was and it was like not knowing there was another sense. (Prior to that I had assumed "the beat" meant "every percussion no matter how rapid" and couldn't figure out how people picked certain ones.

Interestingly, through years of various dance practice since then, I have now got to the point where I can keep a beat, most of the time. But, I still don't "hear" the beat. Instead, I experience it as like that half-breath-taking jolt of acceleration you get stepping onto a moving walkway or if you can imagine grabbing a door on an open train. When I catch the beat I feel it that way, and if I get off beat while dancing and need to catch the 1 or 5 I have to stop for a second with an imaginary hand out to catch that train car and be pulled along again.

While learning dance I felt like there was a varying random time delay between my different senses of hearing the music, seeing people move, moving myself, and my own kinestetic sense that I had moved (I have trouble with sensory fusion in general). It was frustrating to the point of literal tears because I wanted to do it but I couldn't get the circuits in my brain "forward the packets through the network" with a non-random latency. However over time it improved & I think it probably improved my other perceptual issues.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#52

In short, time awareness and spatial awareness are linked. Does that mean if you increase your spatial reasoning skills, you could increase the accuracy of your perception of time? I ask because my spatial reasoning skills suck and so does my sense of time. The possibility of increasing both of these skills at the same time instead of just the one changes the cost/benefit equation for me.

I have problems with time and with space. I got into dance and it was hard because "random packet latency" in my senses messed with my ability to learn and keep a beat. However through the help of dance partners tapping out the beat on my shoulder, and years of practice, I was able to reduce that "sensory latency jitter". I can't say for sure if it helped my spatial sense, but now that I look back, it probably did. I have always understood that, for me, the problems were linked, because you cannot do dead reckoning without an accurate clock.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#53

In short, time awareness and spatial awareness are linked. Does that mean if you increase your spatial reasoning skills, you could increase the accuracy of your perception of time? I ask because my spatial reasoning skills suck and so does my sense of time. The possibility of increasing both of these skills at the same time instead of just the one changes the cost/benefit equation for me.

I see a lot of child comments using "spatial" to refer to multiple distinct concepts: 1) coordination and movement in space, 2) visuospatial skills (i.e. intuition for 2D and 3D geometry), and 3) navigation. While many tasks make use of multiple of these capabilities simultaneously, there are clear behavioral and neuroanatomical dissociations between them (thought slightly less so between 1 and 2).

Coordination of movement in space (for example something like grasping an object) is more dependent on parietal cortex & the dorsal visual stream (the so-called "where" pathway), and the cerebellum.

"Visuospatial skill", as typified by tasks like mental object rotation, is more ascribable to temporal cortex & the ventral visual stream (the so-called "what" pathway, responsible for object recognition). However, it often requires both ventral and dorsal visual cortex.

Navigation is hippocampus-dependent. However, the hippocampus is not a "GPS". I cannot emphasize this strongly enough. It is a hub for integrating and associating disparate information from across the brain in order to form representations of and the relationships between behaviorally-relevant states. This explains why the hippocampus is also involved in "navigating" abstract state spaces, for example turn-based game states [0] or auditory frequency [1], when they're behaviorally relevant. It gets analogized as a GPS because 1) most of the research involves spatial tasks, so space is the behaviorally-relevant dimension, 2) a certain Nobel Prize winner does not feel the need to update his theory, and 3) "Hippocampus = GPS" is too sexy and intuitive of an analogy, especially for the lay press.

The idea of the hippocampus as an "associative engine" also helps unify its seemingly disparate roles in "navigation" and memory when you consider that a memory is just information from disparate brain areas that's been associated via temporal correlation because of its behavioral relevance. It also explains why researchers observe "place cells" and "time cells" and "head direction cels" and "eye position cells": because these variables are behaviorally relevant (i.e. important for maximizing reward) in the task the animal is performing.

[0] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/hipo.22523

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28358077

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#54
post #50

Space is only noise that you can see.

Then sound is space that you can hear.

Both are interesting ways of framing space and the senses, but I'm not sure what you mean by "only". To reduce space to "only noise", in my understanding of your statement, is to imply that it is something extraneous, something to be ignored, or at least given less significance, instead of it being actual, existent, a fundamental aspect of reality that we can describe in useful ways. Either way is interesting imo.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#55

In short, time awareness and spatial awareness are linked. Does that mean if you increase your spatial reasoning skills, you could increase the accuracy of your perception of time? I ask because my spatial reasoning skills suck and so does my sense of time. The possibility of increasing both of these skills at the same time instead of just the one changes the cost/benefit equation for me.

Go to a reasonably safe area and practice the following: Stand still, look around, select a target, close your eyes, turn/walk to the target and reach out to touch it. Then open your eyes to see how close you are. To do this well you need to envision your location and movement in your head. I don't know if practicing this or a variant of it will help because you eliminate the visual feedback and rely on the brains "p…

I think the question that has to be asked is what is the specific deficiency? What if navigation skill is like a 3 legged stool that needs all 3 legs to work? Different people could be missing a different leg.

For instance in my case I'm actually better at steering an RC car or similar than I am at figuring out which way I should turn myself. To the point that sometimes when I'm lost, trying to relate a map on the wall to hallways in a building, my best strategy is to step outside myself and say, "OK if there were a mouse in a maze which way would the mouse have to turn here?" Often, the answer I get from doing that is different from what my brain tells me I myself should do; always, it is my first-person reasoning which has it wrong and the 3rd-person reasoning which is right.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#56

If you take enough acid, it can become incredibly difficult to perceive the passage of time with eyes closed. On one of my higher doses, I was in such an uncomfortable state of mental agitation, fetal position under my covers, that I tried killing time by playing a game of pretending hours were passing when I closed my eyes, and I could briefly believe it until an external sound clued me back in. Changes in spatial p…

This all makes so much sense, because I (having never done drugs) have a constellation of perceptual issues which all relate to this. I believe I have a congenital mutation in these kinds of beat-tracking and spatial orienting cells (it runs in my family). My mother (who grew up in the 60s) always says, of the few times she tried these substances, "Why would you take something to feel this way? I can experience these…

This was such a wonderful and interesting read!

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#57
post #2

> “In older language, distances were typically given by time — the days it takes to go from one valley to another — since it was not distance but the number of sunsets that was easy to calculate.” This makes sense evolutionarily. I imagine that for the primitive man, a concept like time did not make much sense -- position and motion were the important things to track. We were aware of change, but perhaps we did not c…

Interestingly, where I'm from (BC, Canada), it's quite common to give distances between cities in terms of driving time. "Oh, Kelowna is about 5 hours away." Is this expression common anywhere else?

I'm from eastern Canada. I'm not sure I've ever heard someone give distance colloquailly except by using time.

I'm sure it has happened occasionally, but I wouldn't know how to process the information. Especially since equal distances can take different times depending on speed limits, etc

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#58
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illusion? It depends on the exact range of your definition of the term. What exists itself is the truth. Who can see it as it is? No one can speak of something they haven't seen as it is. Every living thing suffers.

No offense, but this wasn't helpful to me. I feel like you're speaking in riddles now. Do you have any sources I could read up on?

I think it means ego is just a label for a thing in the world.

  What exist itself is the truth.
Not the label.

The call for a try to define ego as a precise as possible ("as a mathematician") and in the sibling post from user blueprint probably shall make you attemt just this, but fail at it. I think the "ego" dies when you see what you are looking for in what it is. Not in words not in labels not in labels. Just become aware that your model-maker is trying to model the world that really is there. You are what you are beyond the modeling process.

  What exist itself is the truth
How could you describe it? How could you speak of it? Doing so requires modeling it and therefore it is not the real thing anymore. Therefore you can not really speak about "it" without just referring to a experienced experience.

  No one can speak of something they haven't seen as it is.
Trying to thinking about the "real" world behind and trying to grasp and feel and see it all at once as it is gives me funny tingly feeling in my stomach. But thats is probably not what the they mean.

One fun thing to consider: When there are no models no labels no boundaries no judgements, where does something start and where does it end? Does that even make sense? Objectively the real world is just what it is, one. No things at all. These are just models. The underlying world is still what it is. One.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#59

In short, time awareness and spatial awareness are linked. Does that mean if you increase your spatial reasoning skills, you could increase the accuracy of your perception of time? I ask because my spatial reasoning skills suck and so does my sense of time. The possibility of increasing both of these skills at the same time instead of just the one changes the cost/benefit equation for me.

A point in time is an (n-1)-dimensional slice through an n-dimensional space.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#60

If you take enough acid, it can become incredibly difficult to perceive the passage of time with eyes closed. On one of my higher doses, I was in such an uncomfortable state of mental agitation, fetal position under my covers, that I tried killing time by playing a game of pretending hours were passing when I closed my eyes, and I could briefly believe it until an external sound clued me back in. Changes in spatial p…

This all makes so much sense, because I (having never done drugs) have a constellation of perceptual issues which all relate to this. I believe I have a congenital mutation in these kinds of beat-tracking and spatial orienting cells (it runs in my family). My mother (who grew up in the 60s) always says, of the few times she tried these substances, "Why would you take something to feel this way? I can experience these…

> Sometimes when I close my eyes I experience a sense being an ant in a tiny room versus being the size of Galactus in a solar system sized room, and then warping back and forth like looking backwards through a telescope. That is, the relative scaled distances remain the same but the subjective sense of absolute scale starts to oscillate.

I have long had a feeling like this, like being tiny by simultaneously huge, but never have heard of anyone else who had experienced it, probably for lack of a good description of the phenomenon. Great description.

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