Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#51

Post by mywittyname » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:30 PM UTC

m-p-3 wrote: post #17

Kelbit wrote: post #13

If Canadian companies were willing to offer a competitive salary, maybe Canadian grads would stay. It doesn't even have to be 1:1 with the US, even 75% would be nice. As it is, there is little incentive to stay here. I know a new grad who was faced with the choice of staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting, or heading to the US where he had a job offer with one of the big five for $120k USD plus signi…

I'm wondering how that salary difference really is when comparing the cost of living of many Canadian cities vs Silicon Valley, the taxation rate and the social services provided (universal healthcare, etc).

The big tech hubs in CA (Toronto, Vancouver) are expensive and traffic is absolutely awful. A quick glance online shows average apartment prices are nearly $2000/mo. So it's almost like you're living in Seattle anyway.

I don't think CA has many technical equivalents to Ohama or Columbus that combine high salaries from numerous F500 companies with Midwestern COL.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#52

Post by bradlys » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:31 PM UTC

martinshen wrote: post #25

I recently moved back from the US (SF then Detroit) to Toronto to start a new startup. I was shocked when some entrepreneurs were upset that an Amazon HQ2 may raise the prices on engineering talent in Toronto. That may be true but is extremely short-sighted (and probably means those startups aren't VC-ambitious). The Toronto area really needs Amazon, Google or another large tech company to create a signifiant enginee…

That seems like an outlandishly high number. Where did you get that? You're saying that close to 25-33% of foreigners in the bay are Canadian.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#53

Post by ahelwer » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:31 PM UTC

I'm a Canadian software engineer working in Seattle. One time on a flight back to the homeland I sat next to a Canadian tech VC. We spoke about the tech scene in Canada, and eventually she started complaining about how all the good engineers leave for the States. I mentioned my experience with the massive 50% pay gap in software engineer salaries, and she said something about how it was the fault of the exchange rate and couldn't be helped. It was a ridiculous excuse and the conversation died pretty quickly after that. If VCs want tech talent, they better pony up the money.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#54

Post by monkeynotes » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:32 PM UTC

lainga wrote: post #30

Question - now that Amazon is bringing "3000 jobs" to Vancouver, are they going to be paying wages consistent with their US employees, or with (or just above) the local market rate?

Salaries between Vancouver BC, and Seattle look to be comparable:

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Amazon-Vancouver-Salaries-EI... https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Amazon-Seattle-Salaries-EI_I...

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#55

Post by privacypoller » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:32 PM UTC

m-p-3 wrote: post #17

Kelbit wrote: post #13

If Canadian companies were willing to offer a competitive salary, maybe Canadian grads would stay. It doesn't even have to be 1:1 with the US, even 75% would be nice. As it is, there is little incentive to stay here. I know a new grad who was faced with the choice of staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting, or heading to the US where he had a job offer with one of the big five for $120k USD plus signi…

I'm wondering how that salary difference really is when comparing the cost of living of many Canadian cities vs Silicon Valley, the taxation rate and the social services provided (universal healthcare, etc).

The cost of living between Vancouver and Seattle is very comparable, especially when you account for your biggest input costs, housing, food & transportation. The Salaries most definitely are not. The biggies south of the border set the baseline salary for everyone; when they move north they match the existing, much lower rates.

If I was a new-ish grad and wanted to stay in the PNW there's not a chance I'd pick Vancouver. Seattle has all the same electric cars, dog bakeries and yarn stores that you'll find in the lower mainland, and heading to Whistler for the weekend with more US greenbacks in your pocket would be a lot more fun...

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#56

Post by Kluny » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:32 PM UTC

Canadian here. I get $65,000 USD from my remote American job. That's low enough that people on this forum snicker at me, and high enough that companies in the "tech town" that I live in physically wince when I tell them my salary expectation. I'd rather work locally, but what can I do?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#57

Post by matwood » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:32 PM UTC

mi100hael wrote: post #24

huangc10 wrote: post #9

Canadian working in SV for almost a decade here. Yeah sure, it was about the technology, job, but a lot of it has to do with lifestyle (which the article fails to mention, and can't really be measured). Since I've been here, I've learned how to drive stick shift, sky dived, and been on way more adventure than what I could have if I stayed at home. It's about adventure and taking a risk. Not necessarily about the mone…

I follow what you're getting at, but don't you think a large part of that is due to your own attitudes/perception? It's not like there aren't people in Canada who are doing exciting things like sky diving, let alone driving stick.

> I follow what you're getting at, but don't you think a large part of that is due to your own attitudes/perception?

I bet that's part of it, but probably also tied to the general population shift south and to the coasts where the weather is nicer.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#58

Post by Maven911 » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

And better weather and the cachet of being in a world city.

The brain drain has been going on for decades now... But lately, the general Canadian media has claimed there is a reversal. One case in point is Montreal being proclaimed an "AI Hub". It's considered an "AI hub" mainly because of one of the fathers of AI is from there (and one his students coming up with the concept of Adversial networks) and a few companies opening satellite AI branches such as Google and Microsoft. Nonetheless, that likely amounts to a few hundred jobs at best, involved in cutting-hedge AI/ML/DL. Toronto also has a few well-known AI research centers. And these centers haven't seemed to have produced noticeable concrete results. But only time will tell if these pan out, and more importantly produce enough jobs to keep local talent, which in my mind is still very doubtful.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#59

Post by jorblumesea » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

guiolo wrote: post #47

Kelbit wrote: post #13

If Canadian companies were willing to offer a competitive salary, maybe Canadian grads would stay. It doesn't even have to be 1:1 with the US, even 75% would be nice. As it is, there is little incentive to stay here. I know a new grad who was faced with the choice of staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting, or heading to the US where he had a job offer with one of the big five for $120k USD plus signi…

> Canadian tech companies love to complain about lack of talent, but they're not willing to pay for it [...] They most likely to a large extent can't. It's just a different model both as comapnies and country. In general you can rarely win by being a lesser version of something else. Canada can, hopefully, do a lot of things the US can't. Those are the things it should do to attract people.

Canada's main attraction is the social services and basicaly guaranteed citizenship. The US's main attraction is money and technical opportunities and also some vague promise of a green card.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#60

Post by chrisseaton » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

giarc wrote: post #3

One main caveat "graduates from three of the country’s top universities – University of Waterloo, University of British Columbia and U of T – were working outside Canada." There are many other schools in Canada offering STEM programs.

Oh great so they're only losing the best then?