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An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

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Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#51

Post by ubercore »

kazinator wrote: post #41
pc2g4d wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think so, but somehow the artificial stuff is different or in greater concentration. Here's how I discovered my MSG intolerance: I made a bunch of onion soup (from onion soup mix), and ate a ton of it. I then spent the next 24 hours feeling terrible, downing pepto, etc. A few weeks later I made a recipe that included onion soup mix as an ingredient. Again I felt terrible. I though, Aha, I must have an onion…

Bingo, same here. When I was little, back in the 70's, my mom used these bouillons: Knorr and whatnot. We had no idea what is MSG, but somehow I clued in to the idea that I was feeling sick from that soup and was dreading the "headache soup". In the late 80's, I once so ill from a cup of instant noodles that I had to go home. Not long after that, I finally learned about MSG from a book I stumbled upon in the library…

The list of ingredients on Knorr bouillon is extensive:

Salt, monosodium glutamate, hydrogenated cottonseed oil, chicken fat, hydrolyzed soy/corn protein, dehydrated mechanically separated cooked chicken, dehydrated chicken meat, dehydrated chicken broth, autolyzed yeast extract, dehydrated onions & parsley, lactose, water, colour, spices & spice extract, disodium guanylate, disodium inosinate, citric acid, tartaric acid, hydrogenated soybean oil and sulphites.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#52

Post by happyopossum »

klipt wrote: post #28
bpicolo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a study for contextualizing: https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(00)44233-8/ful... I've yet to see one that showed actual adverse effects of eating MSG via food, regardless of claimed sensitivities. I think this is the heart of the "racist" claim - there's no study that supports the existence of that sort of MSG sensitivity out there yet (that I've heard about)

The "large" dose they use (5g) seems very small. By comparison, just 1 teaspoon of MSG is 8g. I could easily imagine some restaurant dishes containing more than that. (Density of MSG is 1.62 g/cm³, 1 teaspoon = 5cm³)

If you can imagine a single dish containing more than 1 teaspoon of pure MSG, then either you haven't used it or your tastebuds are challenged. 1Tsp of MSG is more than enough to flavor a several pounds of ground meat, or a quart of tomato sauce. You're not getting 1tsp of MSG in a single dish that tastes anywhere near edible.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#53

Post by lightedman »

bvinc wrote: post #25
aphextron wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>P.S. I have no reaction to MSG I just don't understand why you would think someone is being irrational. Because nobody has a reaction to MSG. It's ill effects are entirely fictional.

> Because nobody has a reaction to MSG. It's ill effects are entirely fictional. It has not been proven, and will not be proven, that every single person in the world has no reaction to MSG. All I'm advocating is a little bit of doubt. The human body is complex and not every person is the same and not every biological process is completely understood. We can make statements as a whole, like that most people that thin…

"It has not been proven, and will not be proven, that every single person in the world has no reaction to MSG."

Glutamate (and by extension MSG which simply has a sodium atom attached) is naturally produced by the body. the average human body has two kilograms of it stored at any given point and time in various tissues and organs. Simple logic would dictate that anyone with a sensitivity to it would be constantly reacting to it from the sheer amount their body produces and contains, wouldn't it?

At two kilograms, anyone with a true sensitivity to it should be likely running a deathly reaction and we would have recorded medical evidence of that by now (over the 30-ish years or so it has been studied) if it were truly any sort of prevalent condition.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#54

Post by kazinator »

tptacek wrote: post #46
kazinator wrote: post #8

> They are willing to bring MSG into their homes as a component in other foods—more than happy to accept it as a flavoring powerhouse in Doritos, instant ramen, canned soup, and bouillon cubes, or at least happy to accept its euphemisms, like “hydrolized soy protein” and “autolyzed yeast.” Those are strawman avoiders of MSG, not everyone. I avoid stuff which lists MSG under these names. As well as disodium inosinate…

People say things like this about gluten sensitivity, too, often with very detailed self-reporting. But in a controlled setting, outside of celiac, there's not a lot of evidence for NCGS, and it's very likely that a significant fraction of people who report NCGS are not in fact gluten-sensitive. As with MSG, people also have weird ideas about their gluten intake, and as with MSG there's widespread and easily illustra…

> Something else in those foods you're sensitive to --- most likely salt! --- not MSG.

Can you point to studies which confirm salt as the cause of these symptoms that MSG is unfairly blamed for?

I can eat consume copious amounts of salt without any ill effects, like finishing huge bowls of soup to the last drop.

I exercise a lot so I use salt liberally, and add it to water. If I don't supplement the salt intake, I start getting muscle cramps and a kind of lethargic feeling, particularly in hot weather.

I did an experiment, though, about 8 months ago: I started drinking bouillon. I prepared about a mug of hot water with a teaspoon of the soup stock. On one mug per day, I was okay. When I went up to three, the headaches and nausea showed up. I felt like crap, so I cut it short.

There is salt in that stuff, but that can't be it.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#55

Post by kazinator »

ubercore wrote: post #51
kazinator wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo, same here. When I was little, back in the 70's, my mom used these bouillons: Knorr and whatnot. We had no idea what is MSG, but somehow I clued in to the idea that I was feeling sick from that soup and was dreading the "headache soup". In the late 80's, I once so ill from a cup of instant noodles that I had to go home. Not long after that, I finally learned about MSG from a book I stumbled upon in the library…

The list of ingredients on Knorr bouillon is extensive: Salt, monosodium glutamate, hydrogenated cottonseed oil, chicken fat, hydrolyzed soy/corn protein, dehydrated mechanically separated cooked chicken, dehydrated chicken meat, dehydrated chicken broth, autolyzed yeast extract, dehydrated onions & parsley, lactose, water, colour, spices & spice extract, disodium guanylate, disodium inosinate, citric acid, tartaric…

That's right: "bouillon" isn't "MSG".

Some eight months ago, I reproduced these effects in myself by drinking a hot water solution of something called "Better Than Bouillon". I put about a teaspoon into a mug of hot water. On one mug per day, I was okay, but if I drank three per day, I got the headaches.

The listed ingredients of this paste are: roasted beef with concentrated beef stock, salt, hydrolyzed soy protein, sugar, corn syrup solids, flavour (dried onion and garlic, spice extracts), dried whey (milk), potato flour, caramel, corn oil, xanthan gum.

Must be the dried onion? :)

I've consumed beef, salt, corn syrup, onion, garlic, spices, whey powder, caramel, corn oil in the past in much larger amounts. Xanthan gum is just a thickener; I've used it! No problems. The only thing that stands out there is the "hydrolyzed soy protein".

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#56

Post by skadamou »

TIL glutamate is one of four amino acids that also functions as a neurotransmitter. Obviously, this does not refute any of the science disproving "MSG sensitivity" but I still find it interesting. Further, I wonder if there are people out there that claim sensitivity to aspartate or serine given that they too are both neurotransmitters and amino acids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#57

Post by moogleii »

bvinc wrote: post #25
aphextron wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>P.S. I have no reaction to MSG I just don't understand why you would think someone is being irrational. Because nobody has a reaction to MSG. It's ill effects are entirely fictional.

> Because nobody has a reaction to MSG. It's ill effects are entirely fictional. It has not been proven, and will not be proven, that every single person in the world has no reaction to MSG. All I'm advocating is a little bit of doubt. The human body is complex and not every person is the same and not every biological process is completely understood. We can make statements as a whole, like that most people that thin…

Sure, and you could say the same about tomatoes. But, generally speaking, people don't have reactions to tomatoes. The oddity/absurdity is spending extraneous resources/time arguing whether being allergic to MSG is actually a thing, just as it would be to devote resources into whether being allergic to tomatoes is a thing (hell, it's borderline as absurd as studying if being allergic to salt is a thing, at which point you would just be dead).

If you're allergic to tomatoes or salt, then it's a personal thing, not a general property of tomatoes or salt.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#58

Post by ubercore »

kazinator wrote: post #55
ubercore wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list of ingredients on Knorr bouillon is extensive: Salt, monosodium glutamate, hydrogenated cottonseed oil, chicken fat, hydrolyzed soy/corn protein, dehydrated mechanically separated cooked chicken, dehydrated chicken meat, dehydrated chicken broth, autolyzed yeast extract, dehydrated onions & parsley, lactose, water, colour, spices & spice extract, disodium guanylate, disodium inosinate, citric acid, tartaric…

That's right: "bouillon" isn't "MSG". Some eight months ago, I reproduced these effects in myself by drinking a hot water solution of something called "Better Than Bouillon". I put about a teaspoon into a mug of hot water. On one mug per day, I was okay, but if I drank three per day, I got the headaches. The listed ingredients of this paste are: roasted beef with concentrated beef stock, salt, hydrolyzed soy protein,…

Have you reproduced it with MSG dissolved in water?

EDIT: Have you thought about lactose? It's in whey (depending on quality, various concentrations)

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#59

Post by kazinator »

ubercore wrote: post #58
kazinator wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right: "bouillon" isn't "MSG". Some eight months ago, I reproduced these effects in myself by drinking a hot water solution of something called "Better Than Bouillon". I put about a teaspoon into a mug of hot water. On one mug per day, I was okay, but if I drank three per day, I got the headaches. The listed ingredients of this paste are: roasted beef with concentrated beef stock, salt, hydrolyzed soy protein,…

Have you reproduced it with MSG dissolved in water? EDIT: Have you thought about lactose? It's in whey (depending on quality, various concentrations)

Haven't tried yet. I do know I tolerate salt.

Response to EDIT: I tolerate milk products well, including cheese. I have used whey powder for supplementation (not in recent years). We're talking big quantities consumed at once. I noticed it's used in some baked goods and I tried it that way; it adds a certain milky "body" to the flavor.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#60

Post by 1053r »

tptacek wrote: post #46
kazinator wrote: post #8

> They are willing to bring MSG into their homes as a component in other foods—more than happy to accept it as a flavoring powerhouse in Doritos, instant ramen, canned soup, and bouillon cubes, or at least happy to accept its euphemisms, like “hydrolized soy protein” and “autolyzed yeast.” Those are strawman avoiders of MSG, not everyone. I avoid stuff which lists MSG under these names. As well as disodium inosinate…

People say things like this about gluten sensitivity, too, often with very detailed self-reporting. But in a controlled setting, outside of celiac, there's not a lot of evidence for NCGS, and it's very likely that a significant fraction of people who report NCGS are not in fact gluten-sensitive. As with MSG, people also have weird ideas about their gluten intake, and as with MSG there's widespread and easily illustra…

Just to expand on one of the parent's points, Celiac is pretty rare, and affects under 1% of the population. However, Fructose Malabsorption is much less rare, and affects closer to 5% in the US. In spite of the name, Fructose Malabsorption has little to do with dietary fructose, and instead has to do with a class of molecules called fructooligosaccharides (FOS).

Overconsumption of FOS causes bloating, nausea, "brain fog," lower GI upset, and a whole raft of other symptoms that sound an awful lot like what many self-diagnosed NCGS folks report. For folks with Fructose Malabsorption, the threshold consumption of FOS that causes symptoms is less than 10% the level that causes symptoms in the general population.

The confounding thing is that wheat is rich is FOS. So folks who believe they have NCGS stop eating wheat and sometimes feel better. They probably have Fructose Malabsorption, or are suffering from insulin spiking effects from refined carbs, or some other effect. But they heard gluten was bad for you, and when they ate the package of bread that said "gluten free," and stopped eating the normal wheat bread, they started feeling better.

"Middlebrow dismissals" of their condition don't really help them either. True, gluten is almost certainly not their problem. But gluten free food, as a side effect of lacking wheat, often helps them feel better! What are the chances that something similar is happening with MSG? Perhaps added MSG is often found along side other ingredients/contaminants that cause headaches and other reported "MSG symptoms"?

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