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How to keep someone with you forever

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Re: How to keep someone with you forever

#51

Post by lsc »

tednaleid wrote: post #49
lsc wrote: post #47

what, do people think about the ethics of a manager using the 'intermittent rewards' part in the form of unpredictable bonuses over and above regular salary (which would be regular) with the intent of harnessing the addictive nature of intermittent rewards, without using the rest of these things (which clearly cross the line into unethical.) I'm considering implementing a bonus plan... and the question is, do I make…

It doesn't need to be that random on your side of things. It just needs to be unexpected/unpredictable by the subject getting the reward, but in some way paired with the performance you want to elicit more of. Think of gambling, the reward is very predictable if you know the seed values and underlying algorithms, but unpredictable from the gamblers perspective. This is a classic Variable Ratio (VR) schedule of reinfo…

hm. interesting.

Now, the first question I need to ask is "is this crossing a line" - is it too manipulative... then, if it's not, I need to come up with a bonus scheme.

I was thinking about basing the bonuses on how much revenue has grown past our previous high. (with the number of employees, one guy can really make a big difference, and if we are operating properly, we grow by around 10-15% a month.)

hm. It seems I could pay out on random days on a month that beats the previous months receipts? I think I'd want it to be a 'peak month' rather than a 'peak day' to discourage gaming, I mean, I see how you could queue up customers for a few days... doing this over months could be bad, especially if when the months begin changes randomly.

But yeah, a formula that people can know, with, perhaps, random numbers that aren't known until the period end sounds like the way to go. I think people would mind the manipulation less if it was clear what I was doing and why.

Re: How to keep someone with you forever

#52

Post by keeptrying »

I do agree that this does happen in large companies but its not done intentionally by the founder of the company. Rather when your organisation starts to grow it eventually succumbs to becoming this kind of system.

Sometimes the government will give you the perfect carrot-stick combo - the green card! For the longest time I never understood why american citizens would actually put up with the stuff I see going on in the office month to month.

Also, even these systems are gameable because there is so much randomness that with a little skill, you can get away with doing hardly any work and focussing on your own priorities. Of course you have to trade in the possibility of promotion etc but you'll get the occasional semi-big reward thats doled out to everyone :) ...

Re: How to keep someone with you forever

#53

Post by rphlx »

lsc wrote: post #51
tednaleid wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't need to be that random on your side of things. It just needs to be unexpected/unpredictable by the subject getting the reward, but in some way paired with the performance you want to elicit more of. Think of gambling, the reward is very predictable if you know the seed values and underlying algorithms, but unpredictable from the gamblers perspective. This is a classic Variable Ratio (VR) schedule of reinfo…

hm. interesting. Now, the first question I need to ask is "is this crossing a line" - is it too manipulative... then, if it's not, I need to come up with a bonus scheme. I was thinking about basing the bonuses on how much revenue has grown past our previous high. (with the number of employees, one guy can really make a big difference, and if we are operating properly, we grow by around 10-15% a month.) hm. It seems I…

If your employees are willing to shift revenue/etc to fuck with the bonus plan, you've already lost.

Re: How to keep someone with you forever

#54

Post by rphlx »

smokinn wrote: post #36
kelnos wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cube-land? This sounds like many startups, too.

That's what I was thinking. It sounds much more like startups to me than cubes. The emotional attachment, the promotion of the lack of work/life boundaries, the deadlines or the company dies and the world implodes, all features of startups, not really cubes. (They have their own massive set of dysfunctional features.)

Nah, there are plenty of large tech companies that are run by sociopaths, with bad work/life balance, etc. At least at a startup, there is a small chance you'll get rich, or meet some productive people.

Re: How to keep someone with you forever

#55

Post by dLuna »

wqfeng wrote: post #40

I find my Chinese government is doing exactly what the article says. Especially on Rule #1 and #2. Most of the Chinese people have to work hard for 20-30 years to pay the house debt. Chinese economic has grown at the speed of 10% for many years from the government report. It has to grow like this at least another ten years. Or there will be a disaster. Workers will lose their jobs. The bank will take back the houses.…

How is this different from how it is in the west?

Work hard to pay off the house (or to save to buy a house), an economical crisis that doesn't seem to end no matter the company profits. Etc...

Re: How to keep someone with you forever

#56

Post by lsc »

rphlx wrote: post #53
lsc wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hm. interesting. Now, the first question I need to ask is "is this crossing a line" - is it too manipulative... then, if it's not, I need to come up with a bonus scheme. I was thinking about basing the bonuses on how much revenue has grown past our previous high. (with the number of employees, one guy can really make a big difference, and if we are operating properly, we grow by around 10-15% a month.) hm. It seems I…

If your employees are willing to shift revenue/etc to fuck with the bonus plan, you've already lost.

As a general policy I try to make being straight with me more profitable than not being straight... e.g. if a customer brings to my attention a mistake I made in their favour, I nearly always let them keep it.

Yeah, I don't want dishonest employees... but I also don't want my honest employees to feel like they could do better by being dishonest. even if they are honest people who will continue to be honest, it breeds discontent.

Re: How to keep someone with you forever

#57

Post by Revisor »

Honest question: Why does this article resonate so much and has over 200 upvotes as of now? Is this really such a wide-spread phenomenon?

Can't one detect such behaviour very fast and get out of the rollercoaster before any damage is done?

Re: How to keep someone with you forever

#59

Post by loewenskind »

lsc wrote: post #47

what, do people think about the ethics of a manager using the 'intermittent rewards' part in the form of unpredictable bonuses over and above regular salary (which would be regular) with the intent of harnessing the addictive nature of intermittent rewards, without using the rest of these things (which clearly cross the line into unethical.) I'm considering implementing a bonus plan... and the question is, do I make…

Personally, I would avoid a bonus system entirely. The latest happiness study I've seen showed that a bonus system is a net loss. The system existing sets expectations, which means you have 3 possibilities: exceed, meet or don't meet expectations. If you meet expectations then nothing changes, the employee got what they expected. If you surpass expectations then the employee gets very happy and works even harder! For about a week.

However, if you don't meet expectations then you cause disappointment, resentment, etc. And if the employee is unhappy this can affect other employees (poor attitudes are infectious). Disappointment is tricky and will be made even worse by your proposed semi-random reward schedule [1].

Personally, I prefer the safer route of skipping any tit for tat scenarios (e.g. "if you do X you might get Y at some point in the future").

[1] With the semi-random schedule there is the additional risk that the employee completed something they thought was a big deal, but you didn't or didn't even know about it. Disappointment by not acting on something you weren't aware of.

Re: How to keep someone with you forever

#60

Post by DanielBMarkham »

Wonder how much of that just corresponds to being alive? Intermittent rewards, keeping you busy, being tired, emotionally involved, crises occur --- perhaps much of this is just a fact of life and not intentional on the part of others? Yes, you can intentionally do this to people. But can't it also just be a natural part of existence?
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