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How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

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Re: How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

#51

Post by iamatworknow »

maxerickson wrote: post #33
dalbasal wrote: post #2

I think it's worth occasionally thinking of the "economy" in simple terms, especially for the wider middle class. There are relatively few broad categories that make up most of our economic lives. For most people the "economy" mostly consists of (0) their job/income (1) food/consumable (2) stuff/durables (3) transport (4) vital services: health, education, etc. (5) housing. 1 & 2 are well served by free markets, and…

The planning commission in my small town recently blocked a $10 million apartment building that would have mostly been cheaper housing. Some directly stated that they didn't want the poor people living in the area, which is stupid because they already live there (demographically it's already the poorest zone in the county). A few others said they didn't want to disturb the historical character of the shabby, decades…

Same thing has been happening in the Atlanta metro area for decades, but in relation to transport instead of housing.

750,000 people live in Cobb county, which lies just northwest of the city center. Many of them commute to and from the city everyday for work via one large, congested interstate highway. Expanding MARTA, the Atlanta subway system, into Cobb county seems like a no-brainer way to cut down congestion and speed up travel times for workers who live in the suburbs, and make commuting to downtown events on nights and weekends much easier as well.

However, since the 1960's Cobb has blocked expansion of MARTA into the county. Many people point to racial tension as the reason. Cobb county is mostly affluent white suburbs, and voters have feared that creating a direct transit link with downtown will cause poor blacks to flood the area.

A quote from a state senator in 1971, “People fear that rapid transit would give Negroes greater mobility and consider the $0.15 fare as a gift to ‘a certain segment of the population.’” [0]

Opinions are supposedly starting to change, but as someone who lives (and thankfully works from home) in Cobb, it really does suck not having a quick link to downtown. For now, instead of adding true rapid transit, they're adding 30 miles worth of elevated express toll lanes to that same congested highway, at a cost of about a billion dollars. [1]

[0] http://www.mdjonline.com/cobb_business_journal/marta-s-expan...

[1] https://www.myajc.com/news/local/giant-toll-lane-project-ram...

Re: How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

#52

Post by infinite8s »

rocqua wrote: post #30
Shivetya wrote: post #4

Interesting note about floor space, NYC has a 400ft minimum which has been had demo projects under that limit, there are some current buildings going to 490 on average so its not like Westerners cannot live in smaller spaces, many do and for similar reasons as Tokyo, the rise in single living. this 2016 article covers the NYC scene pretty well https://ny.curbed.com/2016/9/19/12970542/micro-housing-nyc-f...

Note: 400 square feet is ~37 square Meters. I happen to write this from a 24 square meter (~260 square foot) apartment, I am very happy with.

I presume you have no one else living with you. That's a very small space to raise a family.

Re: How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

#53

Post by dragonwriter »

zo1 wrote: post #50
zeth___ wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Soviet housing never worked. More to the point the wait lists for apartments was measured in years (ripe for corruption). The buildings were shoddy and depressing (hope you like grey). Urban planning was haphazard and may or not may have corresponded to where people actually wanted to live. And yet there was no homelessness in the USSR. If that's a system that doesn't work, sign me up for two.

You'd be surprised at how humans "make a plan" when it comes to those things, as long as family/community is not broken. Either way, there probably was some homelessness, but we'd have to look at actual records/stats on it. But the USSR was just one system of social housing. Have a look at what's happening right now in South Africa with what they call RDP housing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_and_Deve…

> Either way, there probably was some homelessness, but we'd have to look at actual records/stats on it.

Since it was a subject of official denial, records and stats would likely be hard to find.

Re: How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

#54

Post by seanmcdirmid »

macspoofing wrote: post #40
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many supply restrictions are geographic rather than based on regulation. Also, Singapore has a semi-socialized system that seems to work.

>Many supply restrictions are geographic rather than based on regulation. That's true. At the end of the day there are only so many desirable beachfront properties, or direct views on Central Park. Those are going to be expensive. >Singapore has a semi-socialized system that seems to work. I know very little about Singapore, but I'll make two comments: 1) I'm skeptical about the feasibility of models that work in tin…

Singapore is dense like NYC is, and, outside of its public housing program, is equally, if not more, expensive than NYC. Singapore is otherwise a very capitalistic country, and its housing program is basically ownership with restrictions that fade overtime.

But more to the point: every super dense city I’ve lived in has had more expensive housing than the lesser dense cities I’ve lived in. Obviously something else is going on, density itself isn’t magic.

Re: How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

#55

Post by cc81 »

zeth___ wrote: post #47
macspoofing wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Housing is in many places (mostly successful cities) the economic disaster. Fully exposed to financialization, business cycles, inflation prone. Rather than signalling to supply, prices adjust to whatever the median person can afford to pay Why should housing not be to governed by market forces? Housing shortages are due to regulations, from limiting new development outright, to limiting high density buildings, to h…

>Soviet housing never worked. More to the point the wait lists for apartments was measured in years (ripe for corruption). The buildings were shoddy and depressing (hope you like grey). Urban planning was haphazard and may or not may have corresponded to where people actually wanted to live. And yet there was no homelessness in the USSR. If that's a system that doesn't work, sign me up for two.

>And yet there was no homelessness in the USSR.

Was there no homelessness or did the state just say that? Just like there are no homosexuals in Saudi Arabia or Chechnya?

Re: How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

#56

Post by kingofhdds »

renw0rp wrote: post #42
macspoofing wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Housing is in many places (mostly successful cities) the economic disaster. Fully exposed to financialization, business cycles, inflation prone. Rather than signalling to supply, prices adjust to whatever the median person can afford to pay Why should housing not be to governed by market forces? Housing shortages are due to regulations, from limiting new development outright, to limiting high density buildings, to h…

while definitely pre-fabricated building were grey and ugly, they still look better than British council houses in London; especially after many of them, for example in Warsaw, got renovated, insulated, covered with plaster and colourfully painted.

Worth mentioning these pretty renovations happened well after the system which brought them stopped its existence.

Re: How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

#57

Post by irq11 »

rb808 wrote: post #41

It was only 20 years ago that Tokyo was famous for having the most expensive, unaffordable housing in the world. Since then it has had a 20 year economic depression. Maybe Tokyo's population has risen (I'm a bit surprised at that) but it also has near-zero foreign immigration. I'm a bit surprised those things aren't mentioned in the article, but it really doesn't prove Tokyo is a great way to run things.

Also, Tokyo sprawls. The city isn’t one giant cluster of skyscrapers called Shinjuku, sorry. Most of the people on this thread would be shocked to see pictures of actual Tokyo housing, which mostly consists of low-rise, detached buildings.

Japan is magic, you see. They must be doing something different there. It can’t possibly be something boring like “the city is built in an enormous, flat river delta.”

Re: How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

#58

Post by rb808 »

dalbasal wrote: post #2

I think it's worth occasionally thinking of the "economy" in simple terms, especially for the wider middle class. There are relatively few broad categories that make up most of our economic lives. For most people the "economy" mostly consists of (0) their job/income (1) food/consumable (2) stuff/durables (3) transport (4) vital services: health, education, etc. (5) housing. 1 & 2 are well served by free markets, and…

Its important to think about what the problem really is. Right now many people are moving to the big cities, and the big cities have expensive housing. To me the real problem is why people want to live in a handful of big cities instead of cheaper regions. If its true that there is no choice but to live in big cities then the current high prices really aren't a problem, its just that is where the money is. Manhattan is a great example, lots of high density development and it still isn't cheap.

Re: How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

#59

Post by macspoofing »

zeth___ wrote: post #47
macspoofing wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Housing is in many places (mostly successful cities) the economic disaster. Fully exposed to financialization, business cycles, inflation prone. Rather than signalling to supply, prices adjust to whatever the median person can afford to pay Why should housing not be to governed by market forces? Housing shortages are due to regulations, from limiting new development outright, to limiting high density buildings, to h…

>Soviet housing never worked. More to the point the wait lists for apartments was measured in years (ripe for corruption). The buildings were shoddy and depressing (hope you like grey). Urban planning was haphazard and may or not may have corresponded to where people actually wanted to live. And yet there was no homelessness in the USSR. If that's a system that doesn't work, sign me up for two.

There was also no unemployment. Clearly that is a system worth emulating.

Re: How Tokyo built its way to abundant housing

#60

Post by kaybe »

baxtr wrote: post #9
daanlo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a German perspective, I can say that costs of building a house are rising mainly due to new legislation around CO2 reduction and fire safety. In a time when producing most goods is getting cheaper through technology, cost of house conatruction is rising. There also doesn't seem to be much innivation in the building industry.

Adding a German perspective: this might be one factor among many. Other factors include - land owners who wait to sell at even higher prices - drastically reduced social housing construction (Sozialer Wohnbau) - heavy influx of foreign capital (at least in major cities) reducing existing capacities - missing holistic development concepts/strategies (one big exception is probably the Bahnstadt in Heidelberg) - on aver…

The social concepts in Heidelberg's Bahnstadt put the prices there just a tad below ridiculous, if you qualify. (If not, they are indeed ridiculous.)
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