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Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

drewdevault.com

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Re: Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

#51

Post by confounded »

rixrax wrote: post #33
tmikaeld wrote: post #28

I think that these points have to click before people move from FB: Simple -> Start the app and commicate (on all devices) Minimum features -> Feed, Chat, Groups, Events, Friends Fast -> No one will use a slow App Ownership -> All self-owned data can be removed from everywhere Decentralized -> And no one else can remove your data Privacy -> With simple sharing control So far, I've not seen anything that has all of th…

>> Decentralized -> And no one else can remove your data So here's the rub: 1) you post stupid stuff, but by the time you realize this, you've already forgotten your password and the account recovery doesn't work, 2) someone gets hold of your account, posts stupid stuff, and 'throws away any means to recover the account', 3) someone posts stupid stuff that is determined to violate law, how do you take that down?

How do you take it down with a centralized system?

Re: Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

#52

Post by gukov »

osteele wrote: post #29

The post repeats the myth “There is no promise that a company can make to its users that outweighs the fiduciary duty that obligates them to maximize profits by any means. The only defense of this is legislation and consumer choice.” As a counterpoint, see, for example, [1], that quotes the Supreme Court Hobby Lobby decision[2]: “Modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the ex…

Let's not forget employee stock options. They're designed to make improving the bottom line everyone's interest.

Re: Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

#53

Post by thewarrior »

tmikaeld wrote: post #28

I think that these points have to click before people move from FB: Simple -> Start the app and commicate (on all devices) Minimum features -> Feed, Chat, Groups, Events, Friends Fast -> No one will use a slow App Ownership -> All self-owned data can be removed from everywhere Decentralized -> And no one else can remove your data Privacy -> With simple sharing control So far, I've not seen anything that has all of th…

Also :

- Handle DMCA notices and law enforcement requests for taking down illegal content.

- Hackers compromising accounts.

- Private data being compromised because of Wordpress like security bugs.

- Spam / Bots spreading junk and fake news.

- Permanently deleting content.

- Concerns around terrorism, grooming, child pornography etc

These problems will become major headaches at scale.

Re: Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

#54

Post by confounded »

snvzz wrote: post #35
swiley wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the messages I post on Mastodon and twitter are intended to be public, just like the things I write on my website. End to end encryption would only make things harder without actually protecting anyone's privacy.

Sure, but does that include followers-only and private messages? Also, lack of encryption allows for selective censorship on the fly.

Development resources are pretty limited, for now it seems fine to use the right tool for the right job; there are plenty of E2EE chat services that can be used, and if there’s significant interest, a norm for favoring one will likely develop (like with imgur and Reddit, for example).

Re: Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

#55

Post by Barrin92 »

osteele wrote: post #49
Barrin92 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not be strictly true in a legal sense, but it hits close to the mark in the case of facebook et al. Their business is the elimination of privacy and selling off the data and attention of their users. It simply would not be a billion dollar business otherwise. Hobby Lobby or a car manufacturer might find a way to combine civic duties with corporate profits, social media will never be able to. Their entire bus…

A company gets to decide what business it's in (Facebook and Google have each explored several), what its ethics are, and how these ethics apply. For example, Google is in a substantially similar business, but it is interesting to contrast Facebook's pattern of behavior with Google's. Google isn't a paragon, and it's alarming (to me) that Google is building a universal panopticon too. But these two companies, despite…

That sounds to me like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. Corporate culture is the direct result of the business model of the company. You won't see facebook promote decentralised privacy, it's not going to happen just like you won't find anti-oil protests within the management of Exxon-Mobile, or a push for rail based public transport within the headquarters of Uber.

Corporate culture is a structure build on-top of their business, nobody has ever changed their business to adapt to their culture, they just get a rebranding and hire a PR team if the two happen to run into conflict.

Re: Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

#56

Post by lamename »

AHMagic wrote: post #3
panarky wrote: post #2

I see this form of argument a lot: Companies have an {obligation, fiduciary duty} to maximize value for shareholders, therefore they have no choice but to do horrible things to {users, customers, the environment, civic institutions} Presumably, decentralization, federation and open source will eliminate the profit-maximizing corporation, thereby stopping all the horrible things. The problem with this reasoning is tha…

We already have decentralization in three primary forms of communication: phone, mail, and e-mail. They worked great in 1998. Why can't they work great in 2018?

They can work but people have largely moved from them because mobile/Internet based platforms are more convenient. Just as people can travel by horse and carriage but most prefer the convenience of car.

This is what happens as technology progresses. I don't think the solution here is to abandon imperfect technology in favor of old, but to improve upon it.

Re: Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

#57

Post by kodablah »

thewarrior wrote: post #53
tmikaeld wrote: post #28

I think that these points have to click before people move from FB: Simple -> Start the app and commicate (on all devices) Minimum features -> Feed, Chat, Groups, Events, Friends Fast -> No one will use a slow App Ownership -> All self-owned data can be removed from everywhere Decentralized -> And no one else can remove your data Privacy -> With simple sharing control So far, I've not seen anything that has all of th…

Also : - Handle DMCA notices and law enforcement requests for taking down illegal content. - Hackers compromising accounts. - Private data being compromised because of Wordpress like security bugs. - Spam / Bots spreading junk and fake news. - Permanently deleting content. - Concerns around terrorism, grooming, child pornography etc These problems will become major headaches at scale.

I'm not sure many people require those to move from FB.

Re: Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

#58

Post by Jansemon »

cwyers wrote: post #44
AHMagic wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have decentralization in three primary forms of communication: phone, mail, and e-mail. They worked great in 1998. Why can't they work great in 2018?

E-mail is largely centralized now. There's a handful of major companies who are able to run an e-mail service and communicate with the hordes of GMail's users who are living behind GMail's spam filters. (Spam filters, it should be noted, that make the service usable for most people.) So what happened is that decentralization worked for a moment in time, but as the Internet grew it worked less well, and we reinvented…

It is unfortunately true that e-mail is mostly centralized (as in even if I don't want to use GMail & Co., I will mostly communicate with people on those bign centralized platforms, thus giving them again my data).

But it is absolutely federated - I have the choice of running my own server and can communicate with every other e-mail address on this planet.

Unfortunately, it isn't easy to setup - average Joe has no chance to get his own server. On the other hand, for IT people it isn't extremely hard either. Once setup, it is nearly maintenance free...

I'm running my (and a company) e-mail server since 2001 and I don't want to miss it. I only once had a problem with being blocked by big sites, after moving to a new server where the IP range has gotten on some blacklists, because of the previous owner. Also never a problem with spam filters.

I hope e-mail will never be replaced - or at least there's some new way of communicating federated where every internet user is reachable.

Re: Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

#59

Post by Barrin92 »

danbruc wrote: post #45
Barrin92 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not be strictly true in a legal sense, but it hits close to the mark in the case of facebook et al. Their business is the elimination of privacy and selling off the data and attention of their users. It simply would not be a billion dollar business otherwise. Hobby Lobby or a car manufacturer might find a way to combine civic duties with corporate profits, social media will never be able to. Their entire bus…

Well, they could just make users pay for the service, there is nothing that forces them to collect money from them via the indirect route of ads.

Obviously only my personal intuition but I'd wager there's not much of a business in a pay-to-play social network. My FB account is practically on hiatus already and I'd not pay for it. If there would be so much value in a privacy conscious, paid social network that is mass-consumer facing we'd probably have seen it by now.

Re: Achtung: Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize

#60

Post by toolz »

rixrax wrote: post #33
tmikaeld wrote: post #28

I think that these points have to click before people move from FB: Simple -> Start the app and commicate (on all devices) Minimum features -> Feed, Chat, Groups, Events, Friends Fast -> No one will use a slow App Ownership -> All self-owned data can be removed from everywhere Decentralized -> And no one else can remove your data Privacy -> With simple sharing control So far, I've not seen anything that has all of th…

>> Decentralized -> And no one else can remove your data So here's the rub: 1) you post stupid stuff, but by the time you realize this, you've already forgotten your password and the account recovery doesn't work, 2) someone gets hold of your account, posts stupid stuff, and 'throws away any means to recover the account', 3) someone posts stupid stuff that is determined to violate law, how do you take that down?

It's decentralized so the only person who should be accountable is the poster. if they mess up that's on them and no one else. Who would the state prosecute if not the poster?
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