Can any composer equal Bach? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#51

Post by lisper » Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 3:18 AM UTC

Bud wrote: post #38

stochastic_monk wrote: post #8

A careful analysis of Beethoven's later works shows him to be a worthy contender. In particular, the Große Fugue [0] and the Op. 106 Hammerklavier sonata [1] (ironically so nicknamed, because at Op. 101, Beethoven directed that all sonatas from that time on be named Große Sonate für das Hammerklavier, and the nickname only stuck to this) show a profoundly advanced sense of counterpoint and structure. In addition to a…

I think Bach's scope is much, much larger than most listeners are aware. For instance, most are completely unaware of the Bach cantata repertoire, the guitar/lute repertoire, etc. I don't mean you personally, because I of course do not know what you're familiar with. (personal bias: I sing professionally, and a fairly large part of what I sing is Bach.)

By a wide margin the most interesting thing to me about what you just said is that in this world it is still possible to make a living singing Bach. Good on you!

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#52

Post by pharrington » Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 3:33 AM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #10

"It’s hard to think of a more refined brain than Albert Einstein’s," What an absolutely silly remark. There were things Einstein was good at, and things he was not. This silly popular image of Einstein as the genius among geniuses is just that: silly and popular. And this appeal to his supposed authority (more like piggybacking off his popular reputation) is just tawdry. "“writing about music is like dancing about ar…

I highly recommend you actually read some Einstein; if not his published papers then at least his notes on developing special and general relativity.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#53

Post by 8bitsrule » Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 3:34 AM UTC

Bach is the 'ultimate composer' in the same sense that Pleistocene Ogg is the ultimate tool-maker, Robert Goddard the ultimate rocket-maker.

Bach did many wondrous things, added a lot to the vocabulary, staked a viable claim on a couple of mother lodes. But this sort of argument (though eternally engaged in) is futile. While classical is a favorite of many (including me), music has moved far, far onward.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#54

Post by acheron » Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 3:42 AM UTC

asaph wrote: post #50

jancsika wrote: post #34

> It’s inconceivable that another composer could take Bach’s place in that slot. Even Mozart or Beethoven wouldn’t cut it. I'd pick Mozart. When listeners hear Bach enumerate what seems like every significant variation technique for a given theme, they can quickly attribute mastery upon hearing that one piece. But someone with Bach's abilities could just as easily have only imagined all those variations as potential…

> It’s inconceivable that another composer could take Bach’s place... I'd like to put my vote in for Lennon-McCartney. I know we're talking about classical music here and I'm not trolling. I just think they're the toppermost of the poppermost.

I'm only being partially facetious to say that the greatest themes in music are Beethoven's Ode to Joy, the theme from Bach's chaconne for solo violin, and the piccolo trumpet part from Penny Lane. (which was itself inspired by Bach's Brandenburg concerto #2)

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#55

Post by stagbeetle » Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 3:49 AM UTC

IAmGraydon wrote: post #17

Douglas Adams once said "Beethoven tells you what it's like to be Beethoven and Mozart tells you what it's like to be human. Bach tells you what it's like to be the universe." As a musician, I understand this. It's our goal as musicians to channel and convey emotion. Bach channels something much greater than himself or myself or ourselves. It's really incredible. His music sounds vast.

And Vivaldi reminds you what it's like to be a child again.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#56

Post by dizzystar » Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 3:55 AM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #11

I first should admit that I'm a 100% self taught appreciator of classical music. I don't have any formal musical education. Nor any formal history of music education. I'm the only person of my family and friends that seeks out and listens to classical music. So, my knowledge is very uneven and I'm a total pedestrian in this realm. Over the years, I've found music by references from fiction, films and criticism. I've…

I think the best way to appreciate Bach is from a few ideas:

First, the article makes a few spurious claims. Saying he was only recently enjoyed is just wrong. And claiming he only played holy music is also wrong.

Bach did not see his music as music that was to be played straight. He saw his sheet music as a suggestion, and he refused to take on any student who didn't show improvisation ability.

If you take his music as a framework to be built upon, you can see the beauty of his motifs and runs, but most of all, you can hear how later musicians from day 1 to today has taken and remixed many of his ideas and music.

In an odd way, I see his music as a collection of etudes, though that's a bit of a disservice to him.

I also think it's helps to actually play his music. Buried in the relative simplicity (of some of his music) is complexity that's hard to really describe unless you've sat down and really hammered away at the music.

Being a guitarist, I'm particularly fond of his lute suites, but nothing supercedes his organ music. The organ music doesn't sound out of place among classic rock albums.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#57

Post by andbberger » Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 3:56 AM UTC

No.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#58

Post by zengid » Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 4:25 AM UTC

stochastic_monk wrote: post #8

A careful analysis of Beethoven's later works shows him to be a worthy contender. In particular, the Große Fugue [0] and the Op. 106 Hammerklavier sonata [1] (ironically so nicknamed, because at Op. 101, Beethoven directed that all sonatas from that time on be named Große Sonate für das Hammerklavier, and the nickname only stuck to this) show a profoundly advanced sense of counterpoint and structure. In addition to a…

A nice video for String Quartet 14 (Op. 131) as you mentioned. Lovely piece!

https://youtu.be/WlFYC1U5viw

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#59

Post by wrs » Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 5:03 AM UTC

lobster_johnson wrote: post #18

DubiousPusher wrote: post #11

I first should admit that I'm a 100% self taught appreciator of classical music. I don't have any formal musical education. Nor any formal history of music education. I'm the only person of my family and friends that seeks out and listens to classical music. So, my knowledge is very uneven and I'm a total pedestrian in this realm. Over the years, I've found music by references from fiction, films and criticism. I've…

Those pieces you mention aren't exactly the things I would categorize as "moving", though. What about the pieces for solo cello (BWV 1007-1008)? The Goldberg Variations? The solo violin sonatas (BWV 1001-1006)? His motets (e.g. BWV 227) and cantatas (too many to mention)? Or the Matthäus Passion (BWV 244)? Most people would also mention the Orchestral Suite No. 3 in D major (BWV 1068, more famously known as "Air on t…

Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor (BWV 582). Actually, just the Passacaglia.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#60

Post by bratsche » Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 5:05 AM UTC

username223 wrote: post #44

Bud wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Bach's scope is much, much larger than most listeners are aware. For instance, most are completely unaware of the Bach cantata repertoire, the guitar/lute repertoire, etc. I don't mean you personally, because I of course do not know what you're familiar with. (personal bias: I sing professionally, and a fairly large part of what I sing is Bach.)

The lute suites are crazy. He didn't play the lute, modern guitars didn't exist when he wrote them, the pieces aren't playable on a guitar without some changes, they sound amazing, and they are brutal to even approximate. He wrote many-voiced ("polyphonic") music for an instrument played by beating two hands on six strings. Not content with that, he wrote fugues for the same instrument, which are polyphonic music tha…

Incidentally one of his lute suites is the same as the c minor cello suite. Except I think on lute it's in either a or e minor, I forget now. I don't know whether the cello suite came first or the lute suite though.

But as a violist I found this interesting. I like to play his violin sonatas and partitas but on viola but people have discouraged me from this because it means changing the key and everyone insists that Bach is very deliberate in his choice of key and it's almost blasphemy to think about playing his music in a different key. But the lute/cello suite is a direct contradiction to this.