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The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

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Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#51
post #16

This reads like a very thinly veiled ad for the author's $500 Software Design web class. Project based learning won't work, traditional learning won't work, only my class will work. In fact the source he quotes (himself) claims he can give you a year's worth of experience in an hour. But why doesn't project based learning fail? Well, in his example Bob, who wants to learn network programming, pairs with Alice, who so…

agree with this. Theoretical example, seems to tilt to advanced the authors view point. Would love some data on project based learning.

> but one student reports that she learned much more from traditional classes.

You can't argue with that. She got more from a 4 year computer science education than the 6 week bootcamp! QED

But seriously, as another commenter mentioned, these maximalist headlines don't really help us get to a better education system. Deliberate practice is very important, but that doesn't mean project-based learning "fails".

I'm tutoring a student 1-on-1 at the moment, and my biggest concern as a teacher is always motivation. The delight that comes from building your own little real world website/app (simple cookie clicker clone in her case) after only a few weeks of programming is so useful in getting students to actually appreciate the value of what they're learning, and then it just snow-balls.

Some good points raised in the article, but perhaps a little click-baity and one-sided.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#52

The nice thing about project-based learning is that it is well grounded, by definition. Theory is useless without some form of grounding. Group projects... well, that is a another thing entirely.

Absolutely agree with you. Without context and purpose there is no meaning in action. And CS is very broad field. Learning theory without practical is like wondering forest without knowing path. Now if forest is small, it may work but if forest is big then you will definitely lose.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#53
I attended a program that had a program that was built around Team Based Learning (TBL) and projects. The program was very well designed around ensuring that you kept up with the course, and put the topics into practice in realistic situations (projects) as both an individual and then as a team.

This is incredibly effective because it reinforces your individual learning with the knowledge of your peers and provides a feedback loop to the professor who would tailor lessons based on what the class was having difficulties with.

TBL is not an easy program to run though, and requires a lot more forethought and time from the professor that is running it for it to be effective. There are some courses where it is a huge improvement over traditional teaching methods and some where I would argue it isn't.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#54
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agree with this. Theoretical example, seems to tilt to advanced the authors view point. Would love some data on project based learning.

> but one student reports that she learned much more from traditional classes. You can't argue with that. She got more from a 4 year computer science education than the 6 week bootcamp! QED But seriously, as another commenter mentioned, these maximalist headlines don't really help us get to a better education system. Deliberate practice is very important, but that doesn't mean project-based learning "fails". I'm tuto…

agree with you absolutely. In broad field like CS, one can't keep interest so long unless there are some practical usefulness.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#55

It's an interesting article. I'm not sure I agree with everything though, but maybe I do. Let me explain. Let's compare programming to figure drawing for a minute. What you could do to learn for example is, you could learn the details of some part of the figure, like the eye. Well, that's cool but it's not gonna teach you. That's because the hard part in drawing the figure is dynamic, balance and proportions. It's no…

Every member of the team must be an expert in drawing the mannequin right. Why? That's not at all clear, even from your example. "If the mannequin is wrong the details will be wrong" does not imply "everyone involved must know how to do the mannequin". Just that someone must. Let's go from figure drawing to true multidisciplinary art -- 3D graphics. At least in the gaming industry, the rigger (creator of the skeleton…

[deleted]

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#56
post #22

I attended a university with a strong co-op program, and I personally believe it is the best possible solution. Classes were focused on theory and my three 6-month co-ops were spent working on meaningful software projects at real companies. As a result, I was able to build up a solid background in Computer Science theory, didn't have to deal with the shortcomings of group class projects, and learned how to ship produ…

I don't know.

I attended a regular computer science program and I am glad I did. The goal of university is not to prepare you as best as possible for working life, but to teach academic thinking.

Class projects usually have a specific purpose, like teaching computer vision, operating systems or building compilers.

You'll spend the rest of your life working. There is no need to rush into it, in my opinion.

Then again, I didn't study in the US, so I didn't have the tuition problem.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#57
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even for the people getting Phds in, say, mathematics? Or the undergrads studying mathematics en route to getting their Phd?

PhD is skilling in academic skills. Undergrad and most masters programs are still just going for information recall. This is why PhDs are specific, intensive, daily, guided, etc.These are all the characteristics of skill aquistion. Compare, say, with paino tuition. All skill acquisition is basically a form of apprentiship. PhDs are apprentice academics. Ask yourself the simple question: after finishing this education…

The answer is that you've learned to learn.

You got some breath of knowledge, not everything is relevant but it helps putting things in perspective. This is crucial.

But the most important thing is that you've learned how to quickly adapt and pick up new things. This is what is valuable and in combination with a broad understanding is very much worth the education. It is okay if the understanding is shallow or even obsolete, point is you have the tools to recognize what you need to learn and you've learned how to quickly brush up on the relevant parts necessary to solve the problem at hand.

What kind of answer did you expect? My BSc amounted to me being very proficient in framework X? That would have been a waste of time and that is also what often is the alternative to an education.

People who self-learn are often very good at a specific tasks but have vast areas which for all intents and purposes is magic.

Maybe lack of education is why everything has to be made in javascript today?

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#58
What a bizarre article. While the whole "Learning Styles" stuff is largely debunked by scientific research, we do know that different things motivate different people.

I would argue that motivation is the single most important aspect of learning - if you're not motivated to learn something, you're not going to do it. I tried to learn programming skills on and off all through my teenage years and early 20s, but it always petered out because I never had anything I really wanted to do in specific with them. I lacked the motivation to just learn the theory without having a project to work on.

When I finally found a project that excited me and could be broken down into manageable pieces to learn, I made infinitely more progress.

Recently I've been going back and learning actual computer science concepts. I've got enough programming knowledge that the computer science things actually interests me now, and I have the motivation to spend time on theory and exercise that I can't immediately apply to a project.

But I never would have gotten to that point without project based learning to begin with, because I never would have been able to stick with it. I wouldn't have cared enough.

Jimmy might be motivated enough by learning the theory that it works for him. But it doesn't work for everyone, and trying to act like there's any one single right way to educate people, when people are so massively different in so many different ways, seems to be fairly arrogant.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#59
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PhD is skilling in academic skills. Undergrad and most masters programs are still just going for information recall. This is why PhDs are specific, intensive, daily, guided, etc.These are all the characteristics of skill aquistion. Compare, say, with paino tuition. All skill acquisition is basically a form of apprentiship. PhDs are apprentice academics. Ask yourself the simple question: after finishing this education…

The answer is that you've learned to learn. You got some breath of knowledge, not everything is relevant but it helps putting things in perspective. This is crucial. But the most important thing is that you've learned how to quickly adapt and pick up new things. This is what is valuable and in combination with a broad understanding is very much worth the education. It is okay if the understanding is shallow or even o…

No, a BSc in physics should and can impart actual skills in physics.

It would require the whole process to be lead by a tutor in small groups. And each day you would work through experiments, mathematics related to them, writing reports about them. You would read books together, and work through their practice exercises together.

You would be set to individual practice as often as a piano student is. And tutored as often as a piano student is, or much more often, given the compressed time.

For computing, you would need daily tutored high-skill computer use. You need tutored programming. Your time would be mostly in projects, with seminars where you read through the theoretical things together. The tutor would be guiding your progress individually, dealing with your issues and showing you the skill of programming, etc.

The "lecture" is a spoken textbook delivered to hundreds of students. It isnt giving you any skills. It's not designed to do that. Mistaking it for skill acquisition, which is what most people do, is pathological.

> Maybe lack of education...

You've confused the worst excess of the current educational system (knowledge about a framework!) as what I am arguing for.

That is what we have now.

Skills are modes of thought, imagination, creativity, attention, deliberation, etc. They require a lot of training in each. To be a programmer is to think, imagine, attend to, and deliberate differently.

A framework has nothing to do with it. This is confusing "skills" with whoknowswhat, recalling how to solve a problem.

In your terms, all of education is at the moment, learning the API of a framework.

What it should be is how to think and act like a programmer.

All of education is learning the pattern of notes in beethoven's fifth.

What is should be is how to play the piano, and compose for yourself.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#60
post #2

As someone at the end of their undergrad, I have to agree that group based projects trend towards being unpleasant. The article describes the distribution of work harming full understanding of the content when all people contribute, however that's usually the best case. Most students are oversubscribed with four or five classes. There tends to always be some portion of a group which contributes trivially or simply do…

> Most students are oversubscribed with four or five classes.

Perhaps that's part of your problem?

At the school I'm going to (KTH) you always[0] take exactly two courses at a time. That makes scheduling group assignments a lot easier. You also tend to take most classes with the same people, so once you've found a decent group you can stick with them for most project courses.

[0]: Almost, you're allowed to take an extra course if you ask nicely and have kept up with coursework so far

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