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Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

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Re: Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#51
post #18

It feels like we're moving away from jobs that are purely productive, to jobs that are more creative. I don't mean arts etc, but 50 years ago a company like Facebook/Snap/Gaming/Any digital entertainment really, could not exist because people were occupied work that was required for society to function. Now humans can start focusing on spending their day building things for the entertainment of other humans, and also…

Facebook/Snap/Gaming/Digital-Entertainment don't employ all that many people. I'd be surprised if the ratio of entertainers / audience is much different than it was for, say, stars of silent movies 100 years ago, even though Charlie Chaplin wasn't doing something that could be termed "needed for society to function".

Ah, but he did. See [The Great Dictator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Dictator) for example. For us to function we need people like Chaplin to show us (in a way or another) what's going on in the world.

Re: Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#52

It feels like we're moving away from jobs that are purely productive, to jobs that are more creative. I don't mean arts etc, but 50 years ago a company like Facebook/Snap/Gaming/Any digital entertainment really, could not exist because people were occupied work that was required for society to function. Now humans can start focusing on spending their day building things for the entertainment of other humans, and also…

There can be a substantial difference between what the company and the employee "do." I walk by a twitter building every day. Probably about 500 people, maybe more. What are they doing in there? They sell ads, manage ad accounts, moderation, data protection audits... stuff that David Graeber wold call BS jobs. Now... I'm not in the same camp as him entirely. I think it's rash to just write off 70% of modern, white co…

  Twitter was twitter before they had all those people.
Sure, but it can't scale without them. How exactly is Twitter supposed to pay the bills? People use this platform because, for the most part, the basic premise is entirely free. How else can they fund the infrastructure/R&D costs?

Re: Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#53
I do not want to be employed. I want to do with my time what I want, and when I want. I do not want to continue living in the age of want, I want to live in the age of plenty. I think it's fair to assume this wish is pretty universal.

So I do not give a rats arse about 'productivity', and neither does anybody else, what we want is to live in paradise, today.

Paradise, for me, is when I can have all of the below as a matter of basic human convenience, 'free' as we call it now in the age of want:

* min 4000 calories of excellent and varied nutritious food whenever I want it

* 1kl of 60℃ water / day to my exclusive disposal, I will generally lie around in it

* 1l of alcoholic beverage, typically high hopped beer, I'm not fussy

* sex on demand with a like minded individual, I'm not fussy, hotness would be nice but I'll be happy with someone less ugly than me

* I want to be able travel to any place in the solar system that humans have built homesteads, on demand, by getting on the nearest bus to Titan

* I want to live as long as I please, in excellent health until life literally bores me to death and I decide to die of some ancient crippling disease as an expression of art, or some other bullshit like that.

Now, if I can have the above, you may own all the AI and tech you want, no worries.

Re: Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the luddites' case that 'person' was willing to work for less using the weaving machinery because they were desperate. The Napoleonic Wars made them lose their livelihoods, homes and families. After the industrial revolution, the enclosure movement was used to strip peasants of their land. After being dispossessed, they were then desperate enough to accept the paltry wages and disgusting working conditions offered…

>Personally, I think trade policy needs to be intimately connected to human rights and environmental and labor conditions. It's never ever ever going to happen. Be careful what you wish for. If what you wanted to happen happened, you would be paying over $100 for the same shirt that costs you $6 in Walmart right now. I also want to point out that, yes, in a globally competitive world wages become globally competitive…

Where did you pull your $100 figure from? Suppose this accounting of environment and labor results in paying say $50 for a shirt that would be durable, then this might simply be awesome. Fewer, more durable goods that in the long term may be cheaper through automation. The answer to slavery may or may not be automation but certainly isn't "well, though, that's capitalism for you."

Re: Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#55
Warning: the following is conjecture which I have not researched. Because who has the time?

My main question while reading this article was why is the author so stuck on "manufacturing" jobs being automated away? He does address this very briefly in section III but I cannot help but feel his foundational research is highly skewed.

Sure, robotics are growing in popularity and that technology, specifically, will likely impact manufacturing. Comparatively speaking, however, industrial robots are very expensive. Only the larger manufacturers are going to be upgrading plants with multi-million dollar (or very, very recently hundreds of thousands) equipment to replace a few hundred workers each (if that?).

Fun fact: ~90% of the 5.7 million companies in the US had fewer than 20 employees in 2012. 50% of working Americans were employed by companies of fewer than 500 (source of questionable quality: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/us-employment-by-firm-siz...).

Compare all that to search results for "images of 1950s offices". You get photos of rows and rows of desks of identical configurations - people with paper pads, typewriters or tabulation machines. Look at what all these people are doing. They are accounting departments calculating statements and balance sheets by hand. They are typists writing out form letters one at a time. These are the job categories that have been wiped out in their entirety by spreadsheets and word processors that you can get literally for free. The CEO can do the work of that 1950s accounting department by herself in an hour.

Where did those jobs go? I don't know how many there were to start but it looks significant.

Yes, modern offices have the same configurations but it is fundamentally different. The companies I work in can have an entire business unit (or company!) working out of an office that size. One person at one desk is an entire marketing department, the next person is HR (including payroll/accounts/bookkeeping). The only rows of homogeneous roles you see these days are the grunts building the technology.

In conclusion, I get the feeling a lot of people wondering if jobs are disappearing seem to be suffering from a bit of "out of sight, out of mind". Most of the automated jobs are already gone.

Just my thoughts.

Re: Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#56
Employment is only a result of an individual wanting someone else to do something for them, because they don't have the time or skill to do it themselves. In exchange for someone doing this thing for them, they compensate them with something of value, normally payment in the form of currency. When you consider employment from this angle, I find it extremely hard to believe that a day will come where the majority of humans on this planet won't want help from other humans to accomplish their goals as they go about their daily lives. Yes, employment in the form of large corporations giving out biweekly paychecks may not exist anymore, but employment as a way to help your fellow human will never cease to exist.

Re: Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#57
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people would love to play in the NBA and would find it fun and satisfying. It's just that very few of them are 6'8", absurdly athletic, and skilled at shooting a basketball. However, if something like nanotechnology made it possible for all those people to play basketball at that level, then the entertainment and spectator aspect would fall away and the desirability of that occupation would go away as well.

Exactly. Lots of people don't want to play in the Eastern European basketball league. They specifically want to play in the NBA. It's not about basketball, it's about the perks. Sidenote: Other than the height, the absurd athleticism and skill at shooting ball are grown over a long period of hard work. Nanotechnology cannot substitute for hard work and years of learning the strategies and techniques of playing the ga…

> Nanotechnology cannot substitute for hard work and years of learning the strategies and techniques of playing the game...

Of course it can. You don't even have to go nano. Give me a team of people from Boston Dynamics for a year, and I guarantee you they'll be able to make me a wearable exoskeleton that is better at throwing the ball on-target than the best NBA player.

It's just, like GP said, with such tech allowed, "the entertainment and spectator aspect would fall away". Sport disciplines are designed to ensure scarcity of good athletes.

Re: Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#58

Employment is only a result of an individual wanting someone else to do something for them, because they don't have the time or skill to do it themselves. In exchange for someone doing this thing for them, they compensate them with something of value, normally payment in the form of currency. When you consider employment from this angle, I find it extremely hard to believe that a day will come where the majority of h…

[deleted]

Re: Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#59

It feels like we're moving away from jobs that are purely productive, to jobs that are more creative. I don't mean arts etc, but 50 years ago a company like Facebook/Snap/Gaming/Any digital entertainment really, could not exist because people were occupied work that was required for society to function. Now humans can start focusing on spending their day building things for the entertainment of other humans, and also…

I wonder if farmers looked at the rise of manufacturing jobs the same way - a move away from jobs that are producing the food that's required for society to function, to jobs that are producing entertaining novelties. Perhaps Facebook/Snap/... will one day be seen as just as vital to the proper functioning of society as manufacturing is today.

Re: Technological Unemployment: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#60

Employment is only a result of an individual wanting someone else to do something for them, because they don't have the time or skill to do it themselves. In exchange for someone doing this thing for them, they compensate them with something of value, normally payment in the form of currency. When you consider employment from this angle, I find it extremely hard to believe that a day will come where the majority of h…

I don't know, eventually all unskilled labor will be replaced by machines, and in order to give someone else value you'll need skill.
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