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Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

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Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#51

Post by 09bjb »

taoistextremist wrote: post #35
09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

I won't disagree with you, except maybe to point out I don't think it's necessarily just biological, but psychological/physiological gender as well that causes the difference. There is some evidence, though last I checked inconclusive, that gender identity has a fairly strong relation with certain brain structures. I don't think it would be surprising that these differences also cause people to gravitate towards cert…

Societal expectations do play a big role, and it's an open questioned as to whether that's a Natural Rule or whether we just haven't tried other cultural configurations enough yet. And you're right, psychological gender probably does play a large role in the effects. It's helpful to note here that biological gender, psychological gender, and gender expression do not vary independently though.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#52

Post by leadingthenet »

leilacc wrote: post #44
09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

I can't believe that in 2018, people are still upvoting posts with lines like "A woman does not equal a man, and she shouldn't.". What the fuck. Do you have any idea how much social/cultural conditioning influences men and women's "biological" decisions to go into whatever field? I am immensely grateful to my parents, who told me that I could do anything I wanted and put me in math and science camps as a kid. I am no…

> I can't believe that in 2018, people are still upvoting posts with lines like "A woman does not equal a man, and she shouldn't.". What the fuck.

I always see people gasp when they hear things like this, but can you really disprove it? I'm genuinely curious.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#53

Post by jtr1 »

Equal, mandatory parental leave would go a long way toward leveling the playing field.

Western cultures are still much more understanding of men being absent from their children's early lives than mothers. These sorts of cultural expectations and allowances are often taken for granted by the people who argue that "inequality of outcome != inequality of opportunity."

If women are to take a career hit for raising their kids, why shouldn't the men who fathered them take that hit as well?

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#54

Post by 09bjb »

aantix wrote: post #48
Xylakant wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s to the best of my knowledge no study that shows that the biological gender matters for the choice of profession. The issue that often muddies things is that girls have been (and still are) brought up with the notion that some professions are not suited to them. This is especially pronounced in IT, where for a long time at the start of the profession, women had the majority of employed people and things starte…

I think he is referring to the research work of Simon Baron-Cohen? https://www.huffingtonpost.com/belinda-parmar/sugar-and-spic... The general conclusion being that men tend to focus on ideas and woman gravitate towards people.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/may/03/biolog...

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#55

Post by sien »

se30b wrote: post #7

If you choose to have children then your career is raising children. You have to choose to prioritize one or the other, the idea that you can take large amounts of time off and still be at the same level as people who kept working is insane. There isn't any injustice going on here. Juggling an intense career path with raising children is a bad idea. Sending children to day care for large amounts of their youth has be…

'Sending children to day care for large amounts of their youth has shown to be highly detrimental to their development'

What are your sources for this claim?

In Sweden 85% of 2 year olds are in day care enabling mothers to work. This has been the case for decades.

Source: http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/social-...

If what you claim is true the entire country of Sweden should show adverse affects. It simply does not.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#56

Post by Xylakant »

aantix wrote: post #48
Xylakant wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s to the best of my knowledge no study that shows that the biological gender matters for the choice of profession. The issue that often muddies things is that girls have been (and still are) brought up with the notion that some professions are not suited to them. This is especially pronounced in IT, where for a long time at the start of the profession, women had the majority of employed people and things starte…

I think he is referring to the research work of Simon Baron-Cohen? https://www.huffingtonpost.com/belinda-parmar/sugar-and-spic... The general conclusion being that men tend to focus on ideas and woman gravitate towards people.

And that still confounds the issue of biological gender and what society constructs to be gender. I doubt that reliable research into this can currently be made since obviously any person that has been brought up in today’s society has been brought up with this societies notion of gender roles. And boy, have we been wrong about what we considered what women could or could not do in the past.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#57

Post by mempko »

leilacc wrote: post #44
09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

I can't believe that in 2018, people are still upvoting posts with lines like "A woman does not equal a man, and she shouldn't.". What the fuck. Do you have any idea how much social/cultural conditioning influences men and women's "biological" decisions to go into whatever field? I am immensely grateful to my parents, who told me that I could do anything I wanted and put me in math and science camps as a kid. I am no…

Thank you. I'm tired of having these discussions and would love to live in a world where men and women are just assumed equal and we don't have to discuss these things. We no longer discuss if people of different color are equal right? It's amazing what shit women have to deal with.

Most people in the USA don't realize this but women only became full citizens only as recently as the 1970s when they were finally allowed to be on juries. That's less then 50 years ago.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#58

Post by thomasahle »

09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

> we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity.

The issue is how you can really measure 'equality of opportunity'. There are so many ways hidden structures can make it seem like there is equality of opportunity without it being there in practice. With 'equality of outcome' it is at least easy to track how we are doing, though it could be leading us away from the goal.

In the James Damore memo, he actually proposed reaching equality of outcome by e.g. changing the jobs until they appealed equally to men and women on average. Perhaps that's one way to cut this knot.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#59

Post by mempko »

09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

Go back to the 1800s please, the 21st century does not need you here.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#60

Post by jhomedall »

09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

  A woman does not equal a man, and she shouldn't.
Careful with your wording here. I'm assuming you meant 'is not the same as'; however 'does not equal' could easily be interpreted as 'not the equal of', which has an entirely different meaning than you intended.
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