Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive • Hacker News Board

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#51

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #48

emodendroket wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there's the one example everyone loves to trot out. Japan is different from the US in a lot of ways and we can't just wave a wand and turn New York into Tokyo (or Cleveland into Sapporo, for that matter).

You can, but that magic wand is enforcing a culture of collectivism. If, from early age on, children learn to take on responsibility for society, this is possible. The US culture of individualism at any price, not giving a single fuck about any other human being, is a significant factor in this.

I don't think that is all there is to it. What about a generally more homogeneous population (not just ethnically but also in terms of income) and essentially single-party rule? A greater acceptance of deficit spending? A much smaller land mass in the first place? The age of the infrastructure? Plenty of other questions.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#52

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 5:17 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #5

I've often wondered why somone moderately wealthy doesn't just start a super dense town, e.g. everything within 100 acres, and be within 10 miles of a major city. Create tons of these at a 50K people/sqmi density and implement some sort of hub spoke transportation with the major city being the hub and it could work!

The PLSS grid favors doing this in chunks of exactly 40, 160, or 640 acres.

That sort of thing has happened before, as a "planned community" or "company town". Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on the folks running the show, and their goals in doing it.

I think the usual failure mode is when the interests of the residents and the corporate founders diverge. The founders then shut down and move out the major employer business, and the town fails because almost everything in it was predicated on that economic support pillar being there. It's like they built shopping malls with only one anchor store.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#53

Post by ars » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 5:17 PM UTC

ebiester wrote: post #31

pxeboot wrote: post #12

I wonder what city will be the first to ban private cars and allow all streets to work this way.

You don't need to ban cars. You just need to design around people instead of cars. Remove parking minimums. Don't put on-street parking but rather leave it to the free market to handle parking solutions (Yes, that means people pay to park.) Subsidize public transit but road maintenance must be paid by automobile-based taxes. Don't require density, but always zone for the next bigger thing. (The neighborhood is single…

How is that designing around people?

First you are going to make all the people in the cars nuts because they can't find parking, so they won't come.

Next all the people who find public transport tedious and slow won't come. (Yes, even the best public transport is not anywhere near as a good as a car that goes direct, and where you can actually leave your stuff in the car.)

Next all the people who hate living in dense places will leave because everything is all squished together, so you are again not designing for people.

How is that designing for people? It sounds more like you are designing for livestock.

Livestock who don't mind, or have no choice, about living in cramped quarters, and who don't mind wasting a lot of time.

No thank you, this is not the kind of city I want.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#54

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 5:17 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #46

reaperducer wrote: post #3

This is something that certain cities have understood for many years. Chicago, for example, mandates that all new development from a simple three-story building to a 100-story skyscraper has retail at its base to improve the walkability of its streets and make its business corridors vibrant. This also helps push down retail rents even in the CBD, allowing local upstart businesses a shot at reaching the masses. Chicag…

It may push down retail rents but it will push up other rents, as now developers have to set aside retail space that there may be no demand for, when it could otherwise go to increased supply (lower rents) for residential or office or whatever.

Adding an additional floor to a multi-story building during construction is not overly expensive (helped a friend with a building project in Lincoln Park).

EDIT: Caveat is once you go from mid-rise to high-rise; price jumps, but your per sq ft costs will continue to decline from ~$200/sq ft to $175/sq ft (Chicago market).

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#55

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

trgn wrote: post #50

emodendroket wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there's the one example everyone loves to trot out. Japan is different from the US in a lot of ways and we can't just wave a wand and turn New York into Tokyo (or Cleveland into Sapporo, for that matter).

In NYC you certainly could. It takes banning cars for personal transport and expand the subway. The city would improve tremendously. Not quite like waving a wand, but doesn't require tearing down and rebuilding either.

Japan doesn't ban cars in its cities. Why would doing so reproduce their results?

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#56

Post by electricslpnsld » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

jnordwick wrote: post #2

> Streetscape enhancements add value to an area and are associated with higher rents and the attraction of new businesses. In addition there is good evidence to show that improving walking and cycling environments raises private property values by significant amounts. Nobody doubts this. Actually everybody sees this as the problem. I love NYC, but i also hate it. There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, ov…

> I love NYC, but i also hate it. There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc.

These read as mostly outdated stereotypes of NYC from 80s and 90s. NYC now ranks as the safest major city in the United States, by most measures.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#57

Post by ars » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #5

I've often wondered why somone moderately wealthy doesn't just start a super dense town, e.g. everything within 100 acres, and be within 10 miles of a major city. Create tons of these at a 50K people/sqmi density and implement some sort of hub spoke transportation with the major city being the hub and it could work!

> a super dense town

Sounds like a nightmare. Ugh, just thinking about it makes me shudder.

Why would someone wealthy want to live that way?

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#58

Post by beat » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 5:21 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #11

itaris wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, what would incentivize people to live there, as opposed to the city?

I'm still figuring that one out, hah. I think if the culture was strong enough and public transportation was "perfected" within the cofines of the 100acres people might gravitate their under normal market pressure. Otherwise I guess you could just make it cheap. For those reading -- what would incentivize you?

Well, what incentivizes people to live anywhere? Wanting to live near people like themselves, and wanting to not live near people unlike themselves. Living where they can afford to live - most people would like to live somewhere like where they currently live, but nicer (which they can't afford). Tradition... live where you grew up, where your family has "always" lived. Etc.

Something to think about here... Noodles and Company. You know what their ad budget is? Zero. They're entirely location-driven. They build only in areas that satisfy certain economic criteria. People who frequent those kinds of areas recognize them from style and previous experience. They know who they want their customers to be.

So you don't start with "I want to build a certain way". Start with "I want to build a community of a certain type of people, with particular incomes and social values".

For example, my spouse and I live in a hundred year old house in a quiet Minneapolis neighborhood. We could have two or three times the space (inside and out) if we were willing to live in the burbs. But we live in the city proper for shared values... access to the artistic communities we love. We live where we can count on most of our neighbors to share our political values. Where we can get the diverse food we like. Etc. And if we had more money, we'd just live in a more expensive version of the same area (heck, my wife's dream house is about four blocks from ours, an old mansion on the Mississippi).

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#59

Post by saosebastiao » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

ebiester wrote: post #31

pxeboot wrote: post #12

I wonder what city will be the first to ban private cars and allow all streets to work this way.

You don't need to ban cars. You just need to design around people instead of cars. Remove parking minimums. Don't put on-street parking but rather leave it to the free market to handle parking solutions (Yes, that means people pay to park.) Subsidize public transit but road maintenance must be paid by automobile-based taxes. Don't require density, but always zone for the next bigger thing. (The neighborhood is single…

It is quite likely that if we made cars pay for their direct and indirect costs, the shift towards transit would make it self sustaining or even profitable, allowing us to not have to subsidize it at all.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#60

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

electricslpnsld wrote: post #56

jnordwick wrote: post #2

> Streetscape enhancements add value to an area and are associated with higher rents and the attraction of new businesses. In addition there is good evidence to show that improving walking and cycling environments raises private property values by significant amounts. Nobody doubts this. Actually everybody sees this as the problem. I love NYC, but i also hate it. There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, ov…

> I love NYC, but i also hate it. There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc. These read as mostly outdated stereotypes of NYC from 80s and 90s. NYC now ranks as the safest major city in the United States, by most measures.

But he is positing these as things that happen in every city. New York is better than it was but out definitely has not made these issues go away altogether.