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Why the Job Search Sucks

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Re: Why the Job Search Sucks

#51

Post by Clubber »

zer00eyz wrote: post #9

FTA: "These tests and whiteboarding are not indicative of your skill level, they are approximations of what you can do with what is likely to be limited information and ambiguous scope." If I'm going to make you get up at a white board (and I might) it isn't going to be to write code on it. We don't hand designers white board markers and say "draw monkey draw" - because it isn't their medium and neither is it ours. I…

>If I'm going to make you get up at a white board (and I might) it isn't going to be to write code on it. We don't hand designers white board markers and say "draw monkey draw" - because it isn't their medium and neither is it ours.

I haven't had to go through this process in years, but from what I recall, you are the exception, far from the rule.

Re: Why the Job Search Sucks

#52

Post by NetOpWibby »

jph wrote: post #20

If you can imagine each interview as a good way to learn about the people at the company, and also about the company's processes, then you can triage as you wish. As an example you could ask openly about the company's hiring processes, rankings, followups, and the like. If you receive answers that satisfy your preferences, that's great; otherwise, you can move on to prepare for the next company.

Y'know what jph? I'm gonna try that.

Re: Why the Job Search Sucks

#53

Post by cookiecaper »

phantom_oracle wrote: post #19

The reference point for gaining employment is that dude who wrote Homebrew and got rejected by Google for being unable to "invert a binary tree on a whiteboard" [1] Unfortunately with this and many other articles I've read on HN over the years, the common theme is that decent/good programmers are not making it past HR. Everyone that wants to work in tech should instead navigate through the meetup/social space and bui…

> Everyone that wants to work in tech should instead navigate through the meetup/social space and build up a decent network for this kind of thing.

Yes, this is absolutely the best way to do it. There's a lot of anxiety and guarded interactions in an off-the-street hiring process, and it's hard for either party to feel fully trustful of the situation, and both end up taking a gamble. This is not entirely obviated by pre-existing relationships and experience (especially when new hires feel like their pre-existing relationship justifies shirking job duties), but it is significantly lessened on both sides.

We have this sanitized myth we've built up about objectivity, but the fact is that it's still about who you know, and most of all it's about being likable. Skill and competence are ambiguous areas that people can and do endlessly debate over, as in "If you can't invert a binary tree on the spot, you are clearly inexperience and incompetent" or "If you think you have to invert a binary tree on-demand without reference materials to provide value as a coder, you're inexperienced and incompetent", but in the real world, being likable and pleasant is the reason that people bring and keep others on board.

If you want to get hired, it's much more important to brush up on your charm and presentation (and maintain that standard throughout your employment) than it is to memorize a particular algorithm. There are always going to be new algorithms that you don't have memorized. Strong social skills will take you much further.

Re: Why the Job Search Sucks

#54

Post by Clubber »

cantrip wrote: post #33
ronilan wrote: post #21

Employers should be required, by law, to compensate interviewees for their time at a rate equivalent to the job for which they are interviewing. (Macdonald’s, Goldman Sachs, line cook, VP legal, same law, everyone, everywhere)

Well then I would be a professional job candidate. I could easily fill my time with $300k+ job interviews that I can pass a phone screen for but am not fully qualified for.

I seriously doubt that.

Re: Why the Job Search Sucks

#55

Post by NetOpWibby »

PretzelFisch wrote: post #8

I hate not getting feedback and the time it takes now to interview. On the other side of the desk, I have regretted not putting up the same code challenge and whiteboard sessions with people I interviewed and hired.

Yep, it's a massive time sink. I'd want tips on how to make that time matter or be utilized better.

Re: Why the Job Search Sucks

#56

Post by Clubber »

gloryless wrote: post #35
ronilan wrote: post #21

Employers should be required, by law, to compensate interviewees for their time at a rate equivalent to the job for which they are interviewing. (Macdonald’s, Goldman Sachs, line cook, VP legal, same law, everyone, everywhere)

Did you even try to play this out in your mind?

It would certainly force companies to actually read the resume in person before throwing out calls.

Re: Why the Job Search Sucks

#57

Post by Drdrdrq »

barryhoodlum wrote: post #12

"I state upfront that I have zero React experience because 99.999999% of tech companies want someone with 18 years of experience with a four-year-old JavaScript framework. I'm being facetious here but that requirement is ridiculous for a fad. Writing CSS in JS? GROSS." You don't have experience 99% of employers want, and your response is to stubbornly write it off as a fad? Maybe that's got something to do with it? I…

Also, I recently gave in and ditched jQuery for React, and must say it's not that bad... It's quite a joy to use actually once you learn the concepts. One needs to look up all new JS "improvements" though to use it.

Especially in larger projects with multiple developers it keeps the codebase much more manageable than oldskool js.

Re: Why the Job Search Sucks

#58

Post by megous »

barryhoodlum wrote: post #12

"I state upfront that I have zero React experience because 99.999999% of tech companies want someone with 18 years of experience with a four-year-old JavaScript framework. I'm being facetious here but that requirement is ridiculous for a fad. Writing CSS in JS? GROSS." You don't have experience 99% of employers want, and your response is to stubbornly write it off as a fad? Maybe that's got something to do with it? I…

All web frameworks solve basically the same set of problems. If you're someone with a very good knowledge of the web platform, who has seen these problems solved in miriad of ways already, job requirements usually seems rather faddish and arbitrary, I can tell you.

Re: Why the Job Search Sucks

#59

Post by NetOpWibby »

azangru wrote: post #36
barryhoodlum wrote: post #12

"I state upfront that I have zero React experience because 99.999999% of tech companies want someone with 18 years of experience with a four-year-old JavaScript framework. I'm being facetious here but that requirement is ridiculous for a fad. Writing CSS in JS? GROSS." You don't have experience 99% of employers want, and your response is to stubbornly write it off as a fad? Maybe that's got something to do with it? I…

I am actually wondering how many readers of the blog post rolled their eyes here. I am not saying that React is the best thing ever; there may be different arguments against using it, but man, this "CSS in JS" (or, alternatively, "HTML in JS") argument is not even funny anymore. I would have discarded this as a meaningless complaint coming from a hardcore backend developer who is repeating the principles of single re…

That's just one of the things that I don't like about React. I guess I'm old-school? I like Handlebars, Sass, and of course HTML/CSS/JS and I do use JS frameworks (Express/Feathers).

Re: Why the Job Search Sucks

#60

Post by NetOpWibby »

jaredcwhite wrote: post #45
codingdave wrote: post #13

> At least I know not to waste my time waiting on you. So don't. If they don't meet your communication expectations, then it isn't a good match anyway. So don't wait. Move along. > These tests and whiteboarding are not indicative of your skill level No, they indicate your ability to work and talk through problems. I'm not sure where this idea that whiteboarding is about skill level came from. You can cram/study algor…

Not a fan of the OP's language, but in terms of the overall rant, actually I'm absolutely going to be more interested in hiring somebody who is calling it for what it is. Lengthy and convoluted interview processes and non sequitur whiteboard sessions are the scourge of the industry. The more programmers revolt and refuse to accept these bizarre practices, the better.

Thanks Jared! I wrote this while still irritated which explains the choice language. I'm glad it didn't stop you from reading!
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