Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

locusmag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 66 posts

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#51

Post by Retric »

Buldak wrote: post #50
Retric wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sidestepping issue of copyright and corporate greed which is the usual HN complaint. Disney promotes a harmful world view and perpetuates unreasonable expectations. It hooks into the same sort of cognitive dissonance that religions do, but by targeting young people it can propagate views without the need to be consistent with the real world. Now personally I elevate that harm because they are specificity targeting ch…

>Disney promotes a harmful world view What worldview is that?

> what about these stories are changed

That's the worldview I am talking about. I am not going to try and simplify it to fit into a single comment.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#52

Post by Retric »

dahart wrote: post #48
Retric wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister works for Disney and I am polite about, but I still place Disney on the same tier as Backwater(Academi) in terms of evil. If you are an Animator I get it they treat you well and it's a small industry. However, objectively they cause an immense amount of direct and indirect harm.

My feelings about Cory aren't because he insulted Disney, I already knew how he felt about Disney. My feelings are personal. He insulted me without knowing anything about me. He assumed that I was colluding rather than working to fix anything from the inside. He was rude to me personally before I said a word to him. He insulted me while I was holding a copy of his book that I had just paid for, while I was spending m…

> trust Disney content around my kids.

Ehh, I really don't trust their content and consider it actively harmful see my other comment.

> fix anything from the inside

I have wondered about this, there are some really dark themes around cannibalism in the lion king just under the surface. Most animals talk, we still eat them. But, I think the whitewashing is still rather pervasive relative to the source material.

> "Evil" is a black and white narrative

'evil scale' is a useful shorthand for harm outside of simply outcomes aka an earthquake is harmful but not evil. However, simply referring to it as a continuum means it's not simply a black and white scale.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#53

Post by hopefullypoetic »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #35
titzer wrote: post #21

Cory is a great writer and gives an entertaining history of attention-grabbing in advertising and games. His main point is that we are continually able to adapt to escalating intrusions that attention grabbers throw at us. However, overall I disagree that we are adapting fast enough. Not only is the escalation so rapid that most cannot adapt, the cultural shift in what is an acceptable level of intrusion is like boil…

>This makes me worry about the future, especially augmented reality. Don't you want ads right ON YOUR FACE!? It's OK. You'll adapt! I have a dream that augmented reality will one day enable you to visually block virtually every advertisement and billboard in meatspace, by covering them up with an image to your liking such as a forest

At the risk of being censured for a frivolous, redditlike comment by a new account, I am reminded of a snippet of doggerel by Ogden Nash, and compelled to share it:

  I think that I shall never see
  A billboard lovely as a tree
  Indeed, unless the billboards fall
  I'll never see a tree at all

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#54

Post by bsder »

dahart wrote: post #49
bsder wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He took one look at my badge that said "Disney" and started hurling sarcastic insults at me about my employer and suggesting my character was tarnished for working for them. So, you waved a red flag in front of a bull and got gored. Um ... I'm sorry he was a jerk to you, but, by the same token, waving "Disney" in front of him is kind of asking for it. A fan would know this. I mean, if you were a fan of Morrissey an…

I walked up to Cory thinking I was on his team, and hoping to share a moment with him talking about the things our team cares about. Before talking to me at all, before knowing who I was or why I was there buying his book and waiting to talk to him, his reaction to seeing my employer was to tell me I wasn't on his team, and that furthermore I was in the wrong by default. When someone is that unwelcoming and antagonis…

> You seem to be suggesting that it's expected and maybe even okay to be mean to people in social situations face to face, based on one's dogmatic beliefs.

Expected? Absolutely. These people are not exactly secret about their hangups. If you hit their button they're going to squawk at you.

Is this a productive way of convincing people to join his views? Interesting question, but probably not.

Am I ok or right with this?

Prior to the election of Trump, I would have said "No, it is not right to zap people like this."

Now? I'm more of the opinion "Your affiliation reflects who you really are and if you present that affiliation in public you should bear consequences in public for those choices."

If you wave something I consider distasteful in front of me, I'm gonna zap you. In fact, I would go further in that it's actually IMPERATIVE for me to zap you so that the people around don't assume that I condone what you represent.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#55

Post by dahart »

bsder wrote: post #54
dahart wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I walked up to Cory thinking I was on his team, and hoping to share a moment with him talking about the things our team cares about. Before talking to me at all, before knowing who I was or why I was there buying his book and waiting to talk to him, his reaction to seeing my employer was to tell me I wasn't on his team, and that furthermore I was in the wrong by default. When someone is that unwelcoming and antagonis…

> You seem to be suggesting that it's expected and maybe even okay to be mean to people in social situations face to face, based on one's dogmatic beliefs. Expected? Absolutely. These people are not exactly secret about their hangups. If you hit their button they're going to squawk at you. Is this a productive way of convincing people to join his views? Interesting question, but probably not. Am I ok or right with th…

> Now? I'm more of the opinion "Your affiliation reflects who you really are and if you present that affiliation in public you should bear consequences in public for those choices."

I hope you change your mind back someday. It's not Trump's fault if you choose to be judgmental or uncivil to strangers, that's your own choice, and you should own it. His bad example doesn't give us permission, nor does this political climate, nor do the consequences of the election.

> In fact, I would go further in that it's actually IMPERATIVE for me to zap you

I'm more of the opinion that we should all treat each other with more respect, give each other the benefit of the doubt when we don't know, and support each other since we all are, in fact, on the same team.

Trump's behavior is all the more reason to bring as much reason and civility and understanding as we can to our lives and interactions with others.

> so that the people around don't assume that I condone what you represent.

What exactly would happen if someone around you assumed something about you that was wrong?

There's a double irony in what you said. You just encouraged making bad assumptions about people. And this endorses precisely the one action that makes it more likely that you will have to face the situation you're afraid of. If everybody is prejudicial, then we all get meaner and we all lose. If instead we assume that an individual does not represent the exact interests of one of the many organizations they're associated with, then we can avoid unnecessary fights, and maybe even have a meaningful conversation and learn from each other.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#56

Post by serpentstar »

bsder wrote: post #54
dahart wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I walked up to Cory thinking I was on his team, and hoping to share a moment with him talking about the things our team cares about. Before talking to me at all, before knowing who I was or why I was there buying his book and waiting to talk to him, his reaction to seeing my employer was to tell me I wasn't on his team, and that furthermore I was in the wrong by default. When someone is that unwelcoming and antagonis…

> You seem to be suggesting that it's expected and maybe even okay to be mean to people in social situations face to face, based on one's dogmatic beliefs. Expected? Absolutely. These people are not exactly secret about their hangups. If you hit their button they're going to squawk at you. Is this a productive way of convincing people to join his views? Interesting question, but probably not. Am I ok or right with th…

Please rethink this bad attitude. The election has not changed the basic equation of human good character and decency. To think it has, displays an alarmingly fickle understanding of what a decent person should do. Don't be like a rock on a slope, that, having no mind of its own, will respond to a small perturbation of the ground, by loosening its position, and wreaking harm all of its own.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#57

Post by serpentstar »

dahart wrote: post #55
bsder wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to be suggesting that it's expected and maybe even okay to be mean to people in social situations face to face, based on one's dogmatic beliefs. Expected? Absolutely. These people are not exactly secret about their hangups. If you hit their button they're going to squawk at you. Is this a productive way of convincing people to join his views? Interesting question, but probably not. Am I ok or right with th…

> Now? I'm more of the opinion "Your affiliation reflects who you really are and if you present that affiliation in public you should bear consequences in public for those choices." I hope you change your mind back someday. It's not Trump's fault if you choose to be judgmental or uncivil to strangers, that's your own choice, and you should own it. His bad example doesn't give us permission, nor does this political cl…

Thanks--said it better than I could.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#58

Post by infectoid »

dahart wrote: post #55
bsder wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to be suggesting that it's expected and maybe even okay to be mean to people in social situations face to face, based on one's dogmatic beliefs. Expected? Absolutely. These people are not exactly secret about their hangups. If you hit their button they're going to squawk at you. Is this a productive way of convincing people to join his views? Interesting question, but probably not. Am I ok or right with th…

> Now? I'm more of the opinion "Your affiliation reflects who you really are and if you present that affiliation in public you should bear consequences in public for those choices." I hope you change your mind back someday. It's not Trump's fault if you choose to be judgmental or uncivil to strangers, that's your own choice, and you should own it. His bad example doesn't give us permission, nor does this political cl…

With you on this one. I have had a similar experience with a semi-famous scientist that I used to looked up to and admired. They made some completely incorrect personal assumptions about me and I was left feeling upset and depressed about it. It's just not something you expect.

It was like finding out one of your friends only kept you around to make jokes about you behind your back.

Unfortunately they have now retrospectively tarnished everything I used to look up to them about. It still leaves me feeling bitter but I deal with that by recognising their contributions to science without recognising them as a person.

Like you, I think we all need to do better maintaining the civility in 'civilisation'. It wasn't easy to get where we are and it won't be easy to get where we are going.

edit: grammar

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#59

Post by cdoctorow »

dahart wrote: post #32
freedomben wrote: post #2

Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say. While this particular blog post isn't about DRM, his work is benefiting everyone (except those who would rather enrich themselves at the expense of humanity). It's probably bigger than you think. I highly recommend reading up on what Cory has to say on DRM and the war on general purpose computing. It may change your mind. http://www.zdnet.com/article/cory-doctorow-s…

> Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say I used to be, then I met him in person. I loved reading his stuff on BoingBoing. I caught him at a book signing at Siggraph in Vancouver one year. I bought his book, and waited in line, excited to talk to him. I asked him what I thought was an interesting question about the difference between print and digital copyrights, and how the laws should change for digital.…

Hey there. I certainly don't recall this exchange, and it sounds rather out of character for me. I have consulted for Disney on and off for a decade and was the inaugural artist in residence for the Blue Sky and R&D groups at WDI. Today my wife is the head of Studiolab at WDS (my work on the Ghost Post project last year helped WDI R&D win a Thea, and they were kind enough to credit the work to me).

I literally can't imagine having said these things (at that particular Siggraph I spent several hours chatting with the WDI R&D people who were on the committee and had booked me in, and who were kind enough to give me a bunch of laser-cut HM merch they made just for me) and I have never to my recollection been deliberately rude to someone from Disney (likewise I try to take real pains to be kind to people who do me the honor of coming up for a book signing).

But if anything I said came across as anything like this, I apologize unreservedly. I can only imagine that some kind of horribly botched joke came out very wrong indeed and I am dismayed to learn I made such a poor impression. I hope to run into you at some future event and make a better one.

Thanks,

Cory

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#60

Post by cdoctorow »

elialbert wrote: post #47
dahart wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say I used to be, then I met him in person. I loved reading his stuff on BoingBoing. I caught him at a book signing at Siggraph in Vancouver one year. I bought his book, and waited in line, excited to talk to him. I asked him what I thought was an interesting question about the difference between print and digital copyrights, and how the laws should change for digital.…

my funny meeting cory story: ran into him after a lecture and fanboyishly told him I'd been reading boingboing half my life (~15 years) - he freaked out, muttered something like "I'm not that old!" shook my hand and ran away.

I'm sorry if it felt like I was running away! That is, indeed, my standard joke when someone who seems to be a fully grown adult tells me they've been reading me since childhood, since in my own timesense, my entire published life feels very short.

But I'm pretty sure I wasn't running away -- more likely just moving on to the next thing (it's often the case that people who book me in for talks schedule things immediately after, like faculty meet-and-greets to justify the expense of paying my way there, etc, and I try not to leave people standing around).

Post reply on HN