Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks • Hacker News Board

Re: Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

#51

Post by ythn » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 3:43 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #47

Agustus wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I wanted to learn from this person their craft and wanted to make a desirable investment in being in their presence and knowledge, you would prevent me from accepting this opportunity?

Don't conflate apprenticeships with taking advantage of poor people. Are you pretending there is no difference between these two scenarios? A) Someone is a gifted tattoo artist and you want to learn the craft from them, so you pay them to teach you. You're responsible for your living expenses and you get by with odd jobs or what-have-you. B) Someone pays you $5/day to do office work for them.

What about:

C) Someone is a gifted tattoo artist and you want to learn the craft from them, but you don't have any money to pay them. So the tattoo artist takes you on as a full-time paid intern, making a non-living wage

Re: Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

#52

Post by bluGill » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

prklmn wrote: post #36

schnevets wrote: post #20

The Target near my apartment in Brooklyn is not giant, but due to population density it has a ton of registers. Over the holidays, the replaced a sizable chunk of these registers with self-checkout kiosks. Although there was a long line to use the self-checkout kiosks, it was a faster and better experience than waiting for a register to open. More importantly, there were still a lot of people working in this section.…

We as consumers will see no gains from using self service checkouts. I am doing the job that someone once did for me so that Target can make more money. Those efficiency gains for Target are a direct burden on me. Also, I’d argue that self checkout is not faster than having someone checkout and someone bag for me, maybe it seemed faster in that scenario, but it’s unliekly faster in general.

When I don't have to wait for the person in front of me to figure out which pack of gum to get, and then find her checkbook... A well trained cashier is faster than me once I get to the front of the line (particularly when I have fresh produce - I don't know which code to type in), but with self checkout I'm generally faster overall just because I don't wait as long in line.

Re: Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

#53

Post by bluGill » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 4:28 PM UTC

danielfoster wrote: post #4

I'm curious if higher minimum wages in a small number of states will also impact jobs in low-wage states. I would imagine a fair bit of the cost of installing these machines is fixed (software development, machine design), and chains might as well roll them out in low-wage states as well.

Maybe. Well trained humans give better customer service when you are talking to them. (try to tell the kiosk the restroom is out of toilet paper) Thus there are advantages to humans who are easy to talk to.

However a kiosk allows 1 person to work the 10pm->5am shift - this shift is not profitable with 3 high wage employees, but if one person can cook and deliver food it might make sense.

Re: Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

#54

Post by bluGill » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

taoistextremist wrote: post #37

These kiosks are already in tons of McDonald's locations from what I understand (I've only seen them in Canada but I'm told they're elsewhere) so I don't get the hesitation. They work well, especially if there's a long line or you're hungover and don't want to talk to anybody. What I'm wondering is when they're gonna figure out how to replace the cooks with machines (though that's a different task from kiosks, you ne…

When I was at McDonalds (mid 1990s) they already has robotic french fry machines - I didn't see it but my understanding (and faulty memory) is frozen fries went in one end, cooked (not boxed) fries came out the others. I remember our managers discussing it and really wanting it for the safety, but they couldn't make the payments (the current fry vat was failing so they already had to pay for the labor and a fryer, but the additional cost of the robot was too high)

Note that I said safety. They were not thinking about labor costs, they were thinking about how it would not splash hot oil on kids. I think it is fair to say that every fast food would accept a 1% loss of profit margin (that 4% to 3% profit margin) just to not have humans interact with burning hot machines.

Re: Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

#55

Post by astr0n0m3r » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #18

astr0n0m3r wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, there are perfectly good reasons the minimum wage should be below a "living wage".

No, there are literally no good reasons for that. If you work a full-time job, and I don't care what that job is, your employer absolutely should adequately compensate you, for the amount of time spent on your job. Your employer is buying your time, the most precious and absolutely non-renewable resource you have. Don't sell it too cheaply.

Since you literally can't think of a single reason, I thought it would be fun if I tried to think of a reason that I had never heard before (or at least I don't remember hearing). So here it is:

Suppose that someone makes $20/hr but only works 20 hours per week. A second (unskilled) job that only pays $5/hr for 20 hours per week would be a significant increase in their income. In fact, where I live that would put them over what is considered a "living wage".

Re: Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

#56

Post by 0xffff2 » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

w0m wrote: post #27

kahnpro wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One major concern about "turning bottom-tier jobs into more productive roles" is about the number of jobs. If 10,000 cashier jobs gets turned into 1,000 maintenance and guidance jobs, you've still put 90% of your workforce out of work. While I don't think we should artificially protect such bottom-tier jobs, this transformation is still going to be very disruptive.

Which then freeze up 9,000 low-skilled workers to do ~anything else that was impractical 5 years ago. 98% of US population used to be farmers for sustainability. Automation of farming freed up that workforce, today only 2% of the population directly farms. That (insanely high) percentage of displaced workforce is what allowed other other industries to spring up. Yes, jobs don't exist for those 9k workers - but the wo…

> Yes, jobs don't exist for those 9k workers - but the workforce being freed is exciting as it opens up entire potential markets that were simply impractical prior.

Like what? Name a single potential market that exists today, and is being held back by a lack of unskilled or semi-skilled labor.

When people moved off of the farms, it was because there were factory jobs to be had in the cities. It was possible to see where people would end up even before farming automation made most farmers unnecessary. As far as I can see, no such transition is apparent today. Unskilled workers are being made redundant with no new labor market to take them.

Some of these workers may get some training and become developers and robot mechanics, but many unskilled workers can't make that jump for whatever reason. It's not realistic to expect all of these people to become skilled workers.

Re: Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

#57

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

taoistextremist wrote: post #45

tonylemesmer wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kiosks have been in all the McDonald's in the UK I've been to in the past 3 years (probably only about 6 tbh). They're great because you can get exactly what you want, down to the pickle and mustard and it entertains the kids whilst you're in the restaurant. In busy restaurants the kiosks do allow a massive backlog of orders to build up. The kitchens cannot keep up. edit: added 2nd para.

>In busy restaurants the kiosks do allow a massive backlog of orders to build up. The kitchens cannot keep up This sounds like it could be understaffing, but if not, they should just put a pause on all orders. Of course, managers would never want that because they're averse to turning down business even if it worsens the quality for everyone.

[deleted]

Re: Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

#58

Post by 0xffff2 » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #34

mrkstu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So teenagers working part-time need to earn a living wage? Having a one-size-fits-all number is damaging. The problem is workers who don't hone a useful skill and create a record of reliability. Anyone that does that won't be making the minimum wage after a little while, at least in the current economy.

Minimum wage is less for teenagers. When I was 15 the minimum wage was $5.15 and I was paid $4.85 because that was the minimum wage for a 15 year old. And it wasn't because I received tips, where the minimum wage was even lower ($2.80 or so I think?)

Where and when was this? That's certainly not true in California in 2018.

Re: Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

#59

Post by ashwinaj » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 6:21 PM UTC

0xffff2 wrote: post #56

w0m wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which then freeze up 9,000 low-skilled workers to do ~anything else that was impractical 5 years ago. 98% of US population used to be farmers for sustainability. Automation of farming freed up that workforce, today only 2% of the population directly farms. That (insanely high) percentage of displaced workforce is what allowed other other industries to spring up. Yes, jobs don't exist for those 9k workers - but the wo…

> Yes, jobs don't exist for those 9k workers - but the workforce being freed is exciting as it opens up entire potential markets that were simply impractical prior. Like what? Name a single potential market that exists today, and is being held back by a lack of unskilled or semi-skilled labor. When people moved off of the farms, it was because there were factory jobs to be had in the cities. It was possible to see wh…

Well put!

If they were free to do anything else, they would've already considered not working in a minimum wage job. It's impractical to expect low skilled workers to suddenly pick up skilled work with no training and effort.

Re: Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

#60

Post by dang » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:19 PM UTC

astr0n0m3r wrote: post #14

csbrooks wrote: post #11

Is it really true that the minimum wage before was JUST at the point where replacing workers wasn't worth the cost, and now it's going just over that threshold? If they can find a way to replace workers with machines, my guess is they will. My local walmart has one worker managing about ten self-checkout stations now. Panera Bread has stations where you order your food; no cashier needed. And the wage they are paying…

Actually, there are perfectly good reasons the minimum wage should be below a "living wage".

Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and ideological flamebait to HN? When I look at your comment history I see several of those, and also several substantive comments, though those are from years ago. If you'd like to keep commenting here, please drop your recent habit and go back to that earlier one.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html