The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#51

Post by ioult » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 12:30 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #2

His childhood mirrors my own, although academic success is inverted. I wonder if there is some trait which transfixed us for life, I am certain that the interviewee (Gideon) and I are not alone. It also beggars the question. Although very non-PC. That were I a girl I would not be dissuaded from this course. I know this because there was literally zero support from anyone regarding computing as a hobby or profession.…

> It also beggars the question. Although very non-PC. That were I a girl I would not be dissuaded from this course. I know this because there was literally zero support from anyone regarding computing as a hobby or profession. In fact the opposite, they actively fought against it.

That's not "non-PC" on Hacker News. A lot of people here belive that there are few to no legitimate reasons for women to not be programmers and that they just don't want to. What isn't PC on Hacker News is the idea that it isn't society who is against women as programmers, but the environment built by "us". That maybe it isn't this environment that is more accepting than all others, but that "we" just fit in.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#52

Post by digi_owl » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 12:30 PM UTC

fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

Machines, at least within the individual program, is a set of orderly instructions.

Human society is anything but.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#53

Post by danieltillett » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 12:39 PM UTC

fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

I don't lose empathy, but I lose the ability to understand or speak English. If someone interrupts me when I am in deep in the groove I can tell someone is talking to me, but I can't understand what they are saying and I can't reply. It takes me around 5 to 10 seconds to context switch back into English.

Amusingly my wife assumes that I am deliberately ignoring her when she interrupts me and storms off in a huff half the time. My staff and students have just learnt that you have to say my name and wait a bit before speaking.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#54

Post by fnl » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 12:41 PM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #34

Niksko wrote: post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

> Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both, but that's beside my point here) I don't think you can easily have both, and this problem underlies much contemporary political conflict. At its core is a pervasive hypocrisy: people readily engage in broad, often negative, stereotyping about groups they oppose, or are not a member of, while agg…

Excellent summary of the core issue. Though I think there should be room for some nature vs. nurture debate. Exclusively attributing this behaviour to our genes seems a bit like the "lazy excuse" to me. I don't see why properly educating ourselves could not lead to a population with improved inter-group empathy (or both, i.e., trigger that evolution at the generic level, too). But yes, maybe changing our educational system is as hard as finding a genetic engineering-based solution...

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#55

Post by tedeh » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 12:46 PM UTC

fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

Oh boy, absolutely. Glad to hear that someone else has this experience too. It's like the social part of my brain is drained for blood and energy, and it usually takes an hour or more after having stopped working until things return to "normal".

Say when I'm out traveling or doing some other activity that involves talking to people for most of the day. Conversation flows naturally and I feel at ease interacting with different people about anything really.

This has of course gotten better with regular practice and being aware, but rare times I still feel it is an effort to even produce a coherent sentence in my second language (English) after a really intense day of developing. People notice that I'm acting absent-minded too which is the worst part, but like I said, practice and awareness has generally made it better.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#56

Post by Joeboy » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 12:51 PM UTC

infinity0 wrote: post #14

I always felt that the fact that the tech industry is so welcome to techies and people with "aspie"-type personalities, indicates that in fact we as an industry have more empathy than other industries (or social groups) that shun these types of people (myself included) for what I believe are very superficial reasons. So, I think the title of the article is extremely biased and draws the wrong conclusions from the wri…

The title is a clever misdirection. In the article, it refers to a (claimed) tendency for society at large to react more empathically to perceived discomfort among women than among men.

Edit: Although according to wikipedia "empathy gap" seems to mean something quite different from either what I was expecting or the way it's used in the article.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#57

Post by ioult » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 12:55 PM UTC

Niksko wrote: post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

> This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written.

I get that this is natural reaction, but don't assume that people who disagree with something do so because it offends them. I didn't like the article because I don't find it very insightful. I think it generalizes too much and takes things at face value.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#58

Post by Niksko » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 12:59 PM UTC

fnl wrote: post #54

stupidcar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both, but that's beside my point here) I don't think you can easily have both, and this problem underlies much contemporary political conflict. At its core is a pervasive hypocrisy: people readily engage in broad, often negative, stereotyping about groups they oppose, or are not a member of, while agg…

Excellent summary of the core issue. Though I think there should be room for some nature vs. nurture debate. Exclusively attributing this behaviour to our genes seems a bit like the "lazy excuse" to me. I don't see why properly educating ourselves could not lead to a population with improved inter-group empathy (or both, i.e., trigger that evolution at the generic level, too). But yes, maybe changing our educational…

I agree with you and the grandparent partly, but if you take an intersectional view of diversity issues, solving diversity and (as you put it) increasing inter-group empathy are effectively one in the same. For me, the constant rearing of this connection (societal scale problems being solved in tandem by solving other societal scale problems) is what convinces me that ideas of intersectionality are real, but sadly leads to the conclusion that yes, the problems are extremely difficult and operate on generational scales.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#59

Post by auvrw » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:00 PM UTC

from the article

> I had also heard something years earlier about autistic people having issues with certain types of clothing similar to my own.

> We know that many people on the autism spectrum prefer relatively snug-fitting clothing that covers their arms and legs.

...i did not know that. however, i did know that incredibly fashionable people prefer relatively snug-fitting clothing that covers their arms and legs, thank you.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#60

Post by fouc » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:02 PM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #53

fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

I don't lose empathy, but I lose the ability to understand or speak English. If someone interrupts me when I am in deep in the groove I can tell someone is talking to me, but I can't understand what they are saying and I can't reply. It takes me around 5 to 10 seconds to context switch back into English. Amusingly my wife assumes that I am deliberately ignoring her when she interrupts me and storms off in a huff half…

Almost sounds like the neurons dedicated for auditory processing have been temporarily allocated towards the visual/logical tasks, hence the delay in switching back ;)