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Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

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Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#51
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. The key is to never be that developer who leaves all that money on the table. The company you're negotiating against will be happy to take it.

The thing is, willing to live in a bungalow might be a competitive advantage, all other things being equal (and maybe even if they are not, sadly).

Lower living expenses is a stupid reason to charge lower rates. I am not a contractor, but I can only imagine lowering my rates (if I were) if I was consistently underbid and not getting enough work or if I were doing charity work for a nonprofit doing important work.

If my living expenses were far below my rate, I'd save my money happily against the possibility my living expenses would go up or my income would go down in the future, and would not lower my rates.

If I occasionally lost a bid but still got enough work, I would not lower my rates.

As a worker, lowering your rates unnecessarily screws other workers, and future-you is another worker getting screwed.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#52
It definitely makes sense to not hire for a certain period to see how this salary bump impacts the company as a whole.

Anecdotal mention: https://open.buffer.com/layoffs-and-moving-forward/

Fast Hiring at that salary level is probably why SV startups burn through money so quickly.

I doubt they will see major performance boosts with the salary increase. If they don't, it indicates the team is already working optimally OR salary increases don't always translate to increased performance. If they do, do they then start asking themselves why performance was so average (relatively)?

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#53
post #25
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the work you're doing is exactly the same regardless of where you do it from But the "bay pay" isn't for your work. It's so you can work - i.e. cover your expenses associated with working at that particular place.

Isn't it? Given a situation with two developers working remotely with exactly the same skills, experience and knowledge on the same project, but one works in India, the other one works in the Bay area. Can you give me one valid reason why the developer in India should get a penny less than the developer in the Bay area? And that the cost of living is less in India than in SF is not, in my opinion, a valid reason. You…

> Can you give me one valid reason why the developer in India should get a penny less than the developer in the Bay area?

You can reverse that question to help answer it.

Can you give me one valid reason why the developer in the Bay area should get a penny more than the developer in India?

One of the reasons the Bay area developer is paid more is because it costs so much to live there that they need to make more to pay their bills. If they won't work for less because of the cost of living, then it's a factor in how much they get paid. As such, it's not just the employer that's factoring employee location into the amount they get paid.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#54

Well done. Personally, as a remote developer, I always make a point of billing at my "Bay Area Rate", even though I've never lived there. There was a point, early in my guy-on-the-beach-with-a-laptop era where I would cut my bill rate in half while working from the beach with a laptop. Clients were happy about that, and it more than paid for beers and thatch huts. Then one time I tried not cutting my bill rate in hal…

Is it just me that thinks working on the beach is awful? Too much light, sand, and heat to be able to concentrate Even if you're working in a coastal hut, nothing beats good ergonomics of a real office

Worked in tel aviv for a few weeks in "remote work for a customer , from a nice environment". Here's your schedule : walk along the beach to go and pick up your breakfast, back to your place or stay at the terrasse for some work, then grab a sandwich at lunch, go for a swim. Work a few hours again, then swim before the sun goes down.

It's a very addictive schedule. The only downside is that you'll be alone pretty much all day because not a lot of people can work like that.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#55
post #46

Well done. Personally, as a remote developer, I always make a point of billing at my "Bay Area Rate", even though I've never lived there. There was a point, early in my guy-on-the-beach-with-a-laptop era where I would cut my bill rate in half while working from the beach with a laptop. Clients were happy about that, and it more than paid for beers and thatch huts. Then one time I tried not cutting my bill rate in hal…

Basecamp is selling all over the world. What should their salary level be like? Bay Area because that’s where a lot of the larger tech companies are situated? Washington State (Microsoft, Amazon)? Copenhagen (where one founder, DHH is from)? Sudney where one major competitor, Jira, is from? I’d say whatever the market is that they hire in. If you wanna pay above market rate, by all means do that. If you can attract e…

[deleted]

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#56
post #46

Well done. Personally, as a remote developer, I always make a point of billing at my "Bay Area Rate", even though I've never lived there. There was a point, early in my guy-on-the-beach-with-a-laptop era where I would cut my bill rate in half while working from the beach with a laptop. Clients were happy about that, and it more than paid for beers and thatch huts. Then one time I tried not cutting my bill rate in hal…

Basecamp is selling all over the world. What should their salary level be like? Bay Area because that’s where a lot of the larger tech companies are situated? Washington State (Microsoft, Amazon)? Copenhagen (where one founder, DHH is from)? Sudney where one major competitor, Jira, is from? I’d say whatever the market is that they hire in. If you wanna pay above market rate, by all means do that. If you can attract e…

People often tell me, "Yeah the Bay Area is expensive but the tech salaries make up for it."

By being able to get a Bay Area salary (e.g. $150k/year) while working from anywhere in the world (e.g. any city where $40k/year is considered comfortable living and $80k/year is considered "well off"), the incentive to continue saturating the area with local talent decreases.

Same salary, lower cost of living, AND the ability to be a homeowner in the foreseeable future? That's a hard deal to beat.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#57

Another argument for globally similar rates could be that cost of living is also to some degree a reflection of additional value (high quality education and healthcare, safety, etc...) which individuals in low income locations may lack. Getting paid the higher rate is a form of compensation. However, I haven’t seen the same argument for other salaries. What makes a developer different from a musician, a lawyer, an ar…

I'm not positive, but for one thing, a developer can more easily work remotely than most of the jobs you mention. That makes them more likely to be able to find another job hiring from just about anywhere to compete on pay. A janitor must uproot her life in order to move to the site of a new, better-paying job, and that often comes with additional costs (not only for moving, but also increased cost-of-living).

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#58
post #46

Well done. Personally, as a remote developer, I always make a point of billing at my "Bay Area Rate", even though I've never lived there. There was a point, early in my guy-on-the-beach-with-a-laptop era where I would cut my bill rate in half while working from the beach with a laptop. Clients were happy about that, and it more than paid for beers and thatch huts. Then one time I tried not cutting my bill rate in hal…

Basecamp is selling all over the world. What should their salary level be like? Bay Area because that’s where a lot of the larger tech companies are situated? Washington State (Microsoft, Amazon)? Copenhagen (where one founder, DHH is from)? Sudney where one major competitor, Jira, is from? I’d say whatever the market is that they hire in. If you wanna pay above market rate, by all means do that. If you can attract e…

Because all companies are competing with Bay Area companies when it comes to recruiting.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#60

Well done. Personally, as a remote developer, I always make a point of billing at my "Bay Area Rate", even though I've never lived there. There was a point, early in my guy-on-the-beach-with-a-laptop era where I would cut my bill rate in half while working from the beach with a laptop. Clients were happy about that, and it more than paid for beers and thatch huts. Then one time I tried not cutting my bill rate in hal…

I've always wondered what kind of development work you can do with a laptop chilling at the beach...

None, due to the glare and distractions. The real work gets done back at hotel/airbnb/coliving/coworking.
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