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Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

nytimes.com

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Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#51

Post by Spooky23 »

twobyfour wrote: post #27
Spooky23 wrote: post #15

Many of these stories are ginned up a bit, as they are PR for civil engineer societies. My wife worked for a water utility in an old city. Outside her bosses office was a lined wooden pipe that had been in place since 1680 or so, and was removed during a construction project. Unless the pipes are riveted, they have a surprisingly long service life, and techniques exist to spot at risk pipes and even make some repairs…

Tell that to the kids in Flint, Michigan who got sick because the city's water pipes were too old (and the city wasn't willing to pay for appropriate water treatment to account for that). Or the ones in NYC who have been drinking from lead-laced school fountains. And those 500 year old wood pipes may still work, but they probably leak like sieves. NYC, for instance, loses billions of gallons a year to leaks in the pa…

Flint had nothing to do with old pipes. It was about bad management and bad engineers whose incompetence resulted in poisoned water.

Those individuals were held criminally responsible. Unfortunately, society and the citizens of Flint bear the cost and consequence of their misbehavior.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#52

Post by mitchty »

orf wrote: post #48
rayiner wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

85% of Americans can also get 100 Mbps. It sounds like you might be in some place like Zurich, where the local power company deployed fiber and allows ISP to provide services over it. That’s a good model, but it’s not legally required. For the most part, Swiss telecom regulation is very similar to that in the United States.

And how much would that 100mbit cost on average in America? Paying about $35 for 100mbit fiber right now, with actual unlimited usage.

I pay about $110/month for 105, so... a lot.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#53

Post by twobyfour »

Spooky23 wrote: post #51
twobyfour wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the kids in Flint, Michigan who got sick because the city's water pipes were too old (and the city wasn't willing to pay for appropriate water treatment to account for that). Or the ones in NYC who have been drinking from lead-laced school fountains. And those 500 year old wood pipes may still work, but they probably leak like sieves. NYC, for instance, loses billions of gallons a year to leaks in the pa…

Flint had nothing to do with old pipes. It was about bad management and bad engineers whose incompetence resulted in poisoned water. Those individuals were held criminally responsible. Unfortunately, society and the citizens of Flint bear the cost and consequence of their misbehavior.

Actually, the old pipes were a major factor. You see, without the correct chemical treatments, the old pipes were releasing scale that had built up over the years.

You see, old lead pipes are safe once they build up a patina; but untreated, acidic water erodes that patina (and also leaches lead from the pipes more readily) and allows the lead to enter tap water.

Even with proper treatment, when lead pipes are disrupted by construction, the patina/scale can be disturbed and the pipes can become dangerous again.

So yes, the failure to treat the water is the immediate (and I agree, criminally negligent) cause of the crisis. But the root cause is old lead pipes; resuming treatment doesn't fully eliminate the danger (which will continue to be elevated for as long as it takes for the patina to build back up); and one of the solutions under discussion has been replacing them.

http://m.startribune.com/flint-water-crisis-reveals-vulnerab...

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#54

Post by baldfat »

rayiner wrote: post #38
baldfat wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government does many things well. Protecting citizens freedoms, roads, airports and ports, education for all, social safety net (medicaid and social security), supplying fuel, CDC, protecting the environment, 911, policing, science and research funding.

Not our government. We spend more on education per student than all OECD nation’s but Switzerland, and have middle of the pack results. Go to Japan or Germany and say we’re doing a good job with our roads. Our municipal governments are among the worst polluters—antiquated sewer systems dump immense amounts of untreated sewage into our waterways each year.

Take out the Inner City Schools (Which gets 50% of the funding since it is property based funding) and US is one of the tops in the world. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/propert...

Massachusetts as a state would be in the top in the world right their with Finland, and that includes Boston http://blogs.wgbh.org/on-campus/2016/12/6/if-massachusetts-w...

Also our Universities are also the top educational system in the world. 7 of the top 10 Universities of the world are US institutions. https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...

PS Rant, Why is that Conservatives and Libertarians like to make things look worst in America and they consider themselves the only patriotic ones?

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#55

Post by rayiner »

orf wrote: post #48
rayiner wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

85% of Americans can also get 100 Mbps. It sounds like you might be in some place like Zurich, where the local power company deployed fiber and allows ISP to provide services over it. That’s a good model, but it’s not legally required. For the most part, Swiss telecom regulation is very similar to that in the United States.

And how much would that 100mbit cost on average in America? Paying about $35 for 100mbit fiber right now, with actual unlimited usage.

Where are you? Swisscom charges $80/month for 100 Mbps symmetric fiber, which is a typical price for gigabit fiber in the US. https://www.swisscom.ch/en/residential/internet-television-f.... Gigabit plus TV plus phone is about $140/month, which is the same as I pay for the same package here in Maryland. Comcast offers 100 down plus TV for $60/month here in MD.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#56

Post by baldfat »

tomohawk wrote: post #44
baldfat wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government does many things well. Protecting citizens freedoms, roads, airports and ports, education for all, social safety net (medicaid and social security), supplying fuel, CDC, protecting the environment, 911, policing, science and research funding.

Roads? Most roads in US are built with a coefficient of friction that is too low. The result? Many unnecessary deaths and accidents. The thing is, the governments don't build the roads - they fund the building of them. Then, they don't enforce the applicable standards to make sure they're built well. German government does much better at this. This comes down to competence. Police? Baltimore is losing people left and…

> Roads

Our Interstate System is what fueled out economy and is the main reason why our economy is the largest in the world. That was 100% Federally funded

> Police

Our crime rates are WAY Down over the past 40 years and probably is the lowest it has ever been. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/21/5-facts-abou...

Also my son gets pulled over for DWB (Driving While Black) about once a month. There are absolutely racist and abusive police but it is finally getting exposed.

> Education? Are you kidding?

Yes take out the cities andwe are top 10

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#57

Post by nate_meurer »

rayiner wrote: post #28
stephengillie wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do arguments like this continue to be made, despite many cities already having municipal broadband? This anti-governmental prejudice is tiring. Governments are made of people - what makes you trust those people less than other people?

Because for the most part my internet works, while my subway catches on fire regularly?

The anecdote is amusing, but not very relevant. My experience is exactly opposite: my Comcastic internet is shit, but I regularly ride my city-run light rail, and the trains are clean, well maintained, and always on time.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#58

Post by rayiner »

baldfat wrote: post #54
rayiner wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not our government. We spend more on education per student than all OECD nation’s but Switzerland, and have middle of the pack results. Go to Japan or Germany and say we’re doing a good job with our roads. Our municipal governments are among the worst polluters—antiquated sewer systems dump immense amounts of untreated sewage into our waterways each year.

Take out the Inner City Schools (Which gets 50% of the funding since it is property based funding) and US is one of the tops in the world. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/propert... Massachusetts as a state would be in the top in the world right their with Finland, and that includes Boston http://blogs.wgbh.org/on-campus/2016/12/6/if-massachusetts-w... Also our Universities are also the top educa…

Inner city schools do not get less of the funding. Property taxes only account for half of K-12 funding. Federal and state grants to inner city and rural schools account for the other half. Here in Maryland, for example, Baltimore spends about the same as Montgomery County, a wealthy DC suburb.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/03/12/in-2....

> When federal dollars are included, just five states are spending less in their poorest districts than in their wealthiest. Nationwide, the average disparity drops from 15 percent to less than 2 percent.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#59

Post by orf »

rayiner wrote: post #55
orf wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how much would that 100mbit cost on average in America? Paying about $35 for 100mbit fiber right now, with actual unlimited usage.

Where are you? Swisscom charges $80/month for 100 Mbps symmetric fiber, which is a typical price for gigabit fiber in the US. https://www.swisscom.ch/en/residential/internet-television-f... . Gigabit plus TV plus phone is about $140/month, which is the same as I pay for the same package here in Maryland. Comcast offers 100 down plus TV for $60/month here in MD.

The UK, but my point was that just because people have access to something doesn't mean they can actually access it - if it's way too expensive for most people, for example. Similar thing with healthcare in the US I guess.

I pay $50 a month for the internet and two mobile contracts, with 4GB data each and unlimited texts/minutes, from BT.

TV is free (freeview, with hundreds of channels). You can pay for Sky or Virgin and get every channel ever, but why would you.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#60

Post by nate_meurer »

rayiner wrote: post #36

Of course the NYT would find a way to make a disaster caused by bad public governance all about evil “deep-pocketed” companies. The American Society of Civil Engineers rates our water infrastructure a “D.” That’s due to chronic underfunding, which in turn is caused by municipal governments setting water and sewer rates far too low to maintain and improve the existing infrastructure. Water infrastructure is a case stu…

I think you're injecting a false dichotomy here. The article doesn't address whether government or private enterprise is responsible for the problem, nor which one is better suited to fix it.

To your point though, have you seen any evidence that private companies are better or more cost effective at providing or maintaining water and sewage infrastructure?

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