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Telegram Isn't for Sale

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Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#51

Post by Vinnl »

ekianjo wrote: post #29
pavlov wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know where the author grew up, but didn’t he get anything in return for his taxes? I’ve had free healthcare, free college education, free libraries, police and fire departments protecting me, occasional grants, a social security network in case I lost my ability to work... I would never say that “taxes limit my options” because the personal record shows the opposite. Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole…

> Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole point of taxes is that it gives options to everyone, not just those lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents. Then how does this thinking fit with the reality of taxes increasing everywhere, year after year? Does that mean that services are getting better? Because you know, it's actually the opposite. It's getting worse: more and more illiteracy in schools, inflation of…

> Does that mean that services are getting better?

One part of it is that there's more of it: more elderly people that require and receive care.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#52

Post by TrickyRick »

mrwong wrote: post #12
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

And you didn't get healthcare, free education for 20+ years, subsidised student loans, retirement money, police, fire department etc. from the state? You really should stop and think what you get from the state before you criticise what the state takes from you.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#53

Post by mbid »

GeneralTspoon wrote: post #28
_s wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. > The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Please don't pluck figures like that out of thin air - I worked in Berlin as a developer and I easily took home ~60% of my monthly salary (pl…

I imagine that he/she is also including VAT in that 70% figure (which I believe is currently 23% in Germany). In Munich my taxes on my pay check were around 45% as a software dev (including pension & insurance). So 70% total tax might not be far off the mark (assuming that you spend most of your income on VAT goods & services). Although you have to remember it's not 23% of your totoal income, but 23% of the remaining…

Actually, it's 0.23 / 1.23 ~= 18.7% of the remaining 55%.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#54

Post by JoshTriplett »

TrickyRick wrote: post #52
mrwong wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

And you didn't get healthcare, free education for 20+ years, subsidised student loans, retirement money, police, fire department etc. from the state? You really should stop and think what you get from the state before you criticise what the state takes from you.

> You really should stop and think what you get from the state before you criticise what the state takes from you.

And when you're done doing so, and decide that it's not a good deal for the money, then you're told to do it again, and again, until you get the "right" answer the person patronizingly telling you to do so expects.

It's reasonable to have a discussion about the most reasonable, efficient, and appropriate way to fund certain things, as well as whether they should be funded at all, and whether funding them should be mandatory. Such discussions should not be derailed by people simply saying "think about what you get" as though the people participating in them haven't already thought about that just because they come to different conclusions.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#55

Post by snowpanda »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #33
nickik wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a total BS argument. Nobody ever payed these taxes. Its far more accurate to look at what part of the GDP the government is spending. That number was the further back you go.

I'm citing my sources. You could at least show me the courtesy of doing the same.

Not OP but he's right, your statement is slightly misleading, not many people actually paid that (fewer than 10,000 households[1]). A good source as you asked for can be found here:

[1] https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-rich-1950-not-high/

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#56

Post by Xylakant »

pfortuny wrote: post #41
maelito wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in France, lots of people don't do the difference between the taxes that go to the government, and the social security deductions. Calling the latter "taxes" is wrong. Most of it pays for your retirement and your health problems.

As long as it is compulsory, it is a tax. Whether it goes to your health problems or your street is irrelevant. If you have no control over the money, it is a tax.

Taxes are free to spend for the government, that is they are levied for whatever action or property the legislators choose to tax. Social security, retirement and health care plans are bound to a purpose and cannot legally be spent on other purposes. They often are compulsory but for example in Germany, health care is mandatory and regulated, but the money does not go to the state but rather to a provider of your choice.

There’s also fees that the administration can levy as payment for specific acts, they’re bound to that act.

Social security payments are not taxes.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#57

Post by eps »

Terr_ wrote: post #42
eps wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got a source for the first claim? Second would've been a red flag if the Russian gvmnt would've been routinely blocking other chat systems.

The first claim? The "hounded by Russia" one? I'm not familiar with the story, but some quick searching reveals this: https://www.engadget.com/2017/10/16/telegram-fined-by-russia... The prime source seems to be founder Durov's social-media posts, retelling his communications to/from regulators.

No, the OP's claim, not theirs.

Re: a huge office & a server farm.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#58

Post by pavlov »

ekianjo wrote: post #29
pavlov wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know where the author grew up, but didn’t he get anything in return for his taxes? I’ve had free healthcare, free college education, free libraries, police and fire departments protecting me, occasional grants, a social security network in case I lost my ability to work... I would never say that “taxes limit my options” because the personal record shows the opposite. Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole…

> Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole point of taxes is that it gives options to everyone, not just those lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents. Then how does this thinking fit with the reality of taxes increasing everywhere, year after year? Does that mean that services are getting better? Because you know, it's actually the opposite. It's getting worse: more and more illiteracy in schools, inflation of…

...the reality of taxes increasing everywhere, year after year

Can you show data to back this up? To my knowledge, income taxes in all Western countries are lower today than they were in the '50s or '70s.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#59

Post by a-saleh »

krrrh wrote: post #23
_s wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. > The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Please don't pluck figures like that out of thin air - I worked in Berlin as a developer and I easily took home ~60% of my monthly salary (pl…

You’re not counting VAT which is 19% of most of what you purchase. Corporate tax is largely bundled into consumer prices as well, and depending on your consumption patterns, and transportations choices there are other taxes that apply. In no way is this list exhaustive.

so .. 59% tax then?

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#60

Post by piva00 »

ekianjo wrote: post #29
pavlov wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know where the author grew up, but didn’t he get anything in return for his taxes? I’ve had free healthcare, free college education, free libraries, police and fire departments protecting me, occasional grants, a social security network in case I lost my ability to work... I would never say that “taxes limit my options” because the personal record shows the opposite. Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole…

> Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole point of taxes is that it gives options to everyone, not just those lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents. Then how does this thinking fit with the reality of taxes increasing everywhere, year after year? Does that mean that services are getting better? Because you know, it's actually the opposite. It's getting worse: more and more illiteracy in schools, inflation of…

I don't think you can be that expansive about your personal experience with taxes, it's very dependent on where you live and it really seems you don't live in the same place where I do so please contextualise where your argument comes from and add some data to base it on.
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