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What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

faculty.washington.edu

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Re: What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

#51

Post by bordercases »

nikkwong wrote: post #23
barrkel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notetaking makes working memory much less of a issue. I recommend you find a way that works for you, if you're interested in career longevity as an engineer. Personally I alternate between todo lists for completion and coverage, and dialectics of theory and test for design and troubleshooting.

Yeah, I've never really understood the note taking thing. I'll be working on simple algorithm problems that require me to hold 3-4 elements in my mind and constantly have to mentally reference them over and over. "what was the value of x again?" — which distracts from solving the actual problem! Maybe the experience that others have is different.

One can use notetaking as extended working memory by visually cross-referencing facts back and forth from the same page. More like a logbook.

Re: What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

#52

Post by Bahamut »

avip wrote: post #38
jasonjei wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids or other activities. I think what the engineer is trying to convey is that a great software engineer thinks about code beyond just the job. I don't think the engineer literally means being a workaholic or the literal 9am-5pm shift, but the engineer has pet proj…

I hear this sentiment a lot. I don't think it has much merit if any. Were musicians practicing scales daily 9-5 (+ occasional overtime when a customer urgently needs a modus they're not familiar with) - would you expect them to "enjoy" another 3h of fingering, possibly on some other instrument, in their spare time - because it "empowers" them and it's "a passion"?

I think having someone who does their coding at work works better for people later in their career, or who have at least done a good solid couple of years of development professionally. For those early into their profession, I usually recommend people dump as much time as they can while they can to get to that point faster, that way when life changes such as they decide to have kids, or focus energy in other passions instead, they are better prepared to make the transition.

In addition, there is a real danger early in a developer's career that their resume becomes a signal of being a weak developer if they don't put in the effort to progress - I have seen this happen to multiple developers who did not take seriously the need to reach a certain level.

Now to tackle the analogy directly, there is a lot of competition for positions in the music world - musicians have to work pretty hard to get stable jobs, or carve out positions of prestige. The most successful musicians I know do it very often, whether it be arranging songs, practicing their musicianship, and immersing themselves in as many musical communities as possible.

Re: What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

#53

Post by PakG1 »

jasonjei wrote: post #27
vmarsy wrote: post #13

I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids or other activities. Being personable: "Can I have a beer with this guy?" is the worse in my opinion. I care about your professional skills and if you're communicating well, but you definitely don't have to be a beer buddy, we might have 15 years difference, a ve…

> I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids or other activities. I think what the engineer is trying to convey is that a great software engineer thinks about code beyond just the job. I don't think the engineer literally means being a workaholic or the literal 9am-5pm shift, but the engineer has pet proj…

Perhaps it can be viewed in the same vein as Michael Jordan's "for the love of the game" contract clause. The clause stipulated that MJ would be able to run off whenever he wanted to join a pickup game, let him remember why he plays. Now, it'd be probably unreasonable for engineers to say to their manager, "hey, I'm going to take a few days off because I want to contribute to an open source project". But my point is whether they ever have a "for the love of my craft" perspective at anytime in their life. How that actually manifests in reality, good question.

Re: What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

#54

Post by snarf21 »

robocat wrote: post #21

This article seems to limit itself to the "enterprise" definition of a great software engineer. The greatest software engineers in small businesses (or personal projects) don't do much development work. Instead they are working as true engineers: making good compromises and solving problems outside of the software which usually leads them into roles that don't have "software" or "engineer" in the title.

So true. It is about solving problems with software, adding value to the project and just generally giving a crap about the work they do. The last is one of the hardest as so many people are what I refer to as "hack 'n slash" devs, with an attitude of "I just did what I was told....".

Re: What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

#55

Post by Terretta »

PakG1 wrote: post #53
jasonjei wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids or other activities. I think what the engineer is trying to convey is that a great software engineer thinks about code beyond just the job. I don't think the engineer literally means being a workaholic or the literal 9am-5pm shift, but the engineer has pet proj…

Perhaps it can be viewed in the same vein as Michael Jordan's "for the love of the game" contract clause. The clause stipulated that MJ would be able to run off whenever he wanted to join a pickup game, let him remember why he plays. Now, it'd be probably unreasonable for engineers to say to their manager, "hey, I'm going to take a few days off because I want to contribute to an open source project". But my point is…

Why is that unreasonable?

Re: What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

#56

Post by ramchip »

justboxing wrote: post #28
vmarsy wrote: post #13

I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids or other activities. Being personable: "Can I have a beer with this guy?" is the worse in my opinion. I care about your professional skills and if you're communicating well, but you definitely don't have to be a beer buddy, we might have 15 years difference, a ve…

This. > Being personable: "Can I have a beer with this guy?" is the worse in my opinion. Social Drinking is a very western activity. In the East (India, Pakistan, China, etc...) a large majority of people are what are called "teetotalers" - never drink alcohol. Yet they socialize as much, if not more.

Japan and Korea have very strong social drinking cultures, so I don’t think it’s really a question of East vs West.

Re: What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

#57

Post by FLUX-YOU »

austincheney wrote: post #35

You make a great software engineer by practicing solving hard problems. There isn't any secret formula or mystique. It is thousands of hours spent solving problems of ever greater difficulty. If you confine your practice to the 9 to 5 job then you are investing fewer hours than somebody who writes open source at night, and will likely be a weaker programmer. If you aren't independently finding new problems to solve t…

Write your shit in assembly then. Everything else is bound to be slower than assembly.

See, I can move goalposts too.

Re: What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

#58

Post by zaptheimpaler »

Terretta wrote: post #55
PakG1 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it can be viewed in the same vein as Michael Jordan's "for the love of the game" contract clause. The clause stipulated that MJ would be able to run off whenever he wanted to join a pickup game, let him remember why he plays. Now, it'd be probably unreasonable for engineers to say to their manager, "hey, I'm going to take a few days off because I want to contribute to an open source project". But my point is…

Why is that unreasonable?

Its not unreasonable, given that some companies demand passionate rockstar unicorn engineers, yet most companies will not grant that request - they will instead exploit that passion into workaholism and leave you holding the bag when you burnout. So as engineers, we must demand equally that "passion" not be a requirement.

Re: What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

#59

Post by Retric »

stfwn wrote: post #45
avip wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this sentiment a lot. I don't think it has much merit if any. Were musicians practicing scales daily 9-5 (+ occasional overtime when a customer urgently needs a modus they're not familiar with) - would you expect them to "enjoy" another 3h of fingering, possibly on some other instrument, in their spare time - because it "empowers" them and it's "a passion"?

I have been in music for some time, and this is almost exactly what great musicians do. There is definitely a time for activities that are ‘neccessary’ or ‘good practice’ to spend time on, and then there is a large amount of time they almost subconsciously spend in their field: they just enjoy having a beer with friends (at a jam session), having a chat (about music), hanging back (with their instrument), waste time…

There is a difference between coding in your off time and reading Hacker News. What you're describing is someone who is relaxing not working. Aka great don't work long days mastering an instrument, just put in their 9-5 and casually have fun. So sure, if someone does not keep abreast of computing in their free time that's not a great sign, but deliberate practice works best a few hours a day not 10+.

PS: What side projects do provide is a way to have more experience than your number of years in the field would suggest. But, that has heavy diminishing returns.

Re: What Makes a Great Software Engineer? [pdf]

#60

Post by makmanalp »

yeukhon wrote: post #37
makmanalp wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being personable: "Can I have a beer with this guy?" is the worse in my opinion I'm not going to disagree with you re: beer buddies. Really the way I read this is not as a requirement that employees participate in after-work events or in mandatory work friendships, but more of a misguided heuristic for something simpler. The general question is whether the average interaction with you is pleasant or not. If your jo…

I don't think, and I absolutely don't think not joining a party would make one's interaction with another person unpleasant. I have seen both types. My old boss doesn't go to party much, but he's absolutely the easiest person to work with.

Yup, agreed - that was what I was trying to convey.
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