Live data from Hacker News

Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

news.ycombinator.com

51–60 of 501 posts

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#51
post #4

IMHO (because to claim to "know" anything about how this is all going to turn out is to be a fraud), Bitcoin is the proof of concept for this whole crypto thing. It was the first. It was the genesis idea. But good lord, do we think it's the actual solution? What would be the odds? I imagine that Bitcoin will play its part as the public face of the blockchain revolution, but something else - or many other somethings -…

What is being missed by your analysis is that the value in a blockchain comes more from the network than the tech. There are thousands upon thousands of blockchains of no value. You could fork bitcoin or some other chain right now and start it on your laptop. Doesn't mean anything - the network is the value.

So taking this into account, when the shackles of Bitcoin's simplicity and limitations become unbearable, the network will evolve through protocol upgrades or through a contentious fork where the hash power and development resources will move to. In either case your coins and value are retained.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#52
post #39
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash is decentralised.

In America, cash production is only legally done by one centralized entity, and it is done by them on a regular basis. As far as I know, this holds true in all developed nations.

Banks are allowed to emit debt at the condition that a fraction of it is backed by some liquidity.

Banks decide where and when to create this debt so yes, money production is indeed decentralized.

If you’re referring to actual coinage and notes then yes, facilities are indeed centralized, but with electronic debit cards the lines are blurred further

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#53
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dosen't the blockchain already compact? Correct me if i'm wrong but once a block is hashed and confirmed as the most recent block, why would you need to store the previous blocks?

Full nodes must store the hashes that are generated from previous blocks. If they didn't, how would you know that the most recent hash really is the generated as a result of hashing the previous block recursively? A malicious attacker could forge a previous block, act as the next one is the current block based on the hash of the forged block, and there would be no way to verify that the hash of this block is valid or…

I was under the impression that attack would not work because as long as the majority of nodes are "honest" there would be no way for an attacking node to outpace the chain. Each node votes with their cpu so the combined compute/speed of honest nodes would always outpace the introduction of a corrupt block. Since the the most recent "confirmed block" is a hash of the previous successful block it just continues.

However I admit much of my assumptions are just from reading the original paper so i'm probably over-simplifying. I guess it would make sense they need some history but not sure why they would need all of it since the previous blocks are confirmed?

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#55
post #3

I don't know what you mean by "prove". People have known about the block size limit for years. It's been increased, but most haven't updated their software to make use of it yet. Lightning now works on mainnet, but no one is using that either. Maybe it's more proof that no one cares?

I think I'm living in a different world than yours. Where I live, it's all different that what you said. The block size hasn't increased. Instead, a new chain forked out with an 8MB block size, it's called Bitcoin cash. Lightning network hasn't launched yet. A few people are testing alpha on the main net and that's it. (Btw I'm a skeptic of lightning network so i'm not advocating lightning network here).

I think he referred to SegWit, which increases the block size a bit under special conditions. That's the thing about bitcoin scaling: instead of improving scaling by increasing the block size (which will be required anyway even with Lightning), a solution that requires only changing the thousands of full nodes, they go for SegWit, which requires changing millions of wallets. Then everybody wonders why adoption isn't instant.

And Lightning, yup. I tried to use two Lightning implementations on the test net and neither worked, but they have been declared "ready!" by fans.

And Lightning deserves skepticism. Releasing software 1.0 means nothing: it requires a totally new infrastructure, with new wallets (again) which have to be online to receive money, hubs which don't exist at all today, liquidity providers willing to leave money locked in channels, (but hey, at least we didn't have to upgrade full nodes) and has completely different failure modes than the blockchain on top of the failure modes that are already there. As far as I understand it isn't even possible to receive more money than you already have with Lightning, and any part you open a channel with can block your funds for as long as the channel timeout has been set (and you don't want short/underfunded channels or you may end up paying more in transactions than you would have with a pure blockchain).

Also the opening and closing of channels means that if Lightning is actually successful the current block sizes won't be sufficient. It's at least one transaction to open the channel and another to close it, and because you want to keep a warm channel so you can buy coffee, you will want to do that whether you end up using the channel or not, but you also don't want it very long otherwise your money will be stuck if the channel goes down. So essentially you need to pay subscription fees to the blockchain for using the channels as well as well as commission to the channels for providing liquidity to you.

Maybe some super-centralized thing will come out of it and we'll all connect to the Coinbase Channel or something to do trustless centralized off-chain transactions (as opposed to trusted centralized off-chain transactions that they provide now) but even that has a host of problems when you think about it.

It's... a complicated system. It's cool and very interesting but it won't happen overnight and it's not guaranteed to actually work.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#56
> How is this expected to work with 7 billion people using it for every tiny financial transaction? I don't think it can.

Give it ~30 years, for the cost of CPU time/storage space/internet speed to cost 0.1% of what it does today, and — in combination with off-chain clearing — this becomes feasible.

For Bitcoin to even work as money in the first place, people need to store their savings in bitcoins. This transition will take at least ~30 years anyway, which leaves ample time for computing costs to fall to a level where 1GB blocks are realistic. Combined with an off-chain clearing protocol (like Stroem[1]) for consumer-to-merchant payments, this should allow Bitcoin to scale to ~10bn people.

[1] https://www.strawpay.com/docs/stroem-payment-system.pdf

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#57
post #4

IMHO (because to claim to "know" anything about how this is all going to turn out is to be a fraud), Bitcoin is the proof of concept for this whole crypto thing. It was the first. It was the genesis idea. But good lord, do we think it's the actual solution? What would be the odds? I imagine that Bitcoin will play its part as the public face of the blockchain revolution, but something else - or many other somethings -…

> It was the first. It was the genesis idea. But good lord, do we think it's the actual solution? What would be the odds?

If superior technology comes along, what will prevent Bitcoin from adopting this, and using its network effect to outmaneuver a competing blockchain?

A couple of months ago, the Bitcoin network adopted the SegWit protocol change, which could be considered a minor fix (no major improvements to scalability). If the Bitcoin network can agree to adopt a minor fix, why wouldn’t it be able to agree to adopt a major scalability improvement as well?

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#58
post #4

IMHO (because to claim to "know" anything about how this is all going to turn out is to be a fraud), Bitcoin is the proof of concept for this whole crypto thing. It was the first. It was the genesis idea. But good lord, do we think it's the actual solution? What would be the odds? I imagine that Bitcoin will play its part as the public face of the blockchain revolution, but something else - or many other somethings -…

bitcoin is already used in pseudo reserve de-facto currency to trade other currencies. perhaps it will stay that way - a way into crypto world.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#59
post #21

I don't think you're wrong and there are other problems too. Widespread Bitcoin adoption would require more energy for mining coins than the entire world can currently produce.

Bitcoin has no particular requirement for energy, it’s an arbitrage involving the prices of three components: 1) a bitcoin 2) a KWh of power 3) mining hardware.

As long as the value of newly minted bitcoins makes it profitable to buy mining hardware and burn off power to earn them, the amount of power used by bitcoin miners will increase.

So, way before Bitcoin miners consume all of the world’s energy, either energy prices or mining hardware prices will increase, or the bitcoin price will fall, to make mining unprofitable.

Post reply on HN