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“I Don't Like Your Examples” (2000)

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Re: “I Don't Like Your Examples” (2000)

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d agree if this was an active discussion between the author and me. But I’m posing a question to an author of a piece written 17 years ago... Allow me to reframe the question: if you’re fine with the book as-written, would you still be fine with it if it expressed the opposite political views?

I don't think all political views are equivalent. Of course I'm supportive of opinions that I agree with, like you point out. Opinions I disagree with or espouse a world-view that is different than mine? Of course I'm fine with that. I read and own many authors I disagree with because I value the knowledge gained by reading them and understanding their words, even if I disagree. Your example though? > Let’s say for a…

Then you’re more open minded than most.

The point I was trying to get at is that when discussing a topic like “it is ok to use obviously political examples in a book about programming”, then it’s more interesting to consider what your response will be when they’re political positions different from yours. Nobody minds being “confronted” with opinions they already hold.

Note I explicitly didn’t give an example like ethnic cleansing or shooting gays. Advocating for murder isn’t political opinion in my book.

Re: “I Don't Like Your Examples” (2000)

#52
post #12
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you. I find these examples distracting if not annoying.

It’s just a book. He’s taken it a direction that decreases his audience. It sounds like he’s probably published and sold enough copy to be able to be picky about readership. You’re welcome to not purchase this material. He’s also welcome to write and publish it. Otherwise, I think he could have tried to depolarize his examples or take them a more light/comedic direction. Maybe a “murder count” to classification switc…

To be fair, if I'd been writing about PL/SQL - which is possibly the worst language ever conceived - for as long as that author had, I think I might start to go a little mad with the examples after a while as well.

Re: “I Don't Like Your Examples” (2000)

#53
My main objection to the examples he gives is that a book about technology leaves little to no space to expand on these matters. I think that providing context is of utter importance in written media. In some sense, the author exerts control over the reader, as reading is all about internalising the author's thoughts, and does not give the opportunity to (immediately) ask questions. Just stating (hidden) opinions about things that are off-topic, abuses the trust that a reader puts into the author. Correspondingly, such examples borderline on being rude and are likely to result in strong reactions when discovered.

A well-balanced treatise on something that traces the author's line of thought gives the reader the opportunity to consider his own opinion in the light of the information that is being presented. However, as I wrote above, a book about technology is not the right place for an excursion into the history of war-crimes, and a technology author would first have to convince the reader that he is actually eligible to talk about these matters.

Still, and as I already wrote in some child comment, the author is correct that current technology-books often contain a "hidden" agenda (software being framed as something that primarily satisfies commercial or business interests), and it is also correct that democracies should more openly embrace discussion on polarising topics instead of tabooing it. I would argue that these two issues are best addressed in the following way:

a) Authors should actively think about whether examples are sufficiently neutral, e.g., talk about a database for the organisation of your "birthday party" (all people have birthdays, and many people celebrate them in one way or another) instead of talking about the database managing your companies' employees (at least if the title of your book is not "Relational Databases in Human Resources"). Note that being neutral is different from being uncontroversial. For example, when writing about cognitive neuroscience it is impossible to not (at least implicitly) state that humans are "just animals", although this statement surely upsets people's religious feelings. Yet the statement is still on-topic and neutral, since it is the very premise of this line of research.

b) Non-fictional texts are intrinsically about providing context, and deviating into the off-topic is only watering down the value of these writings. In the context of written communication, democracy is best advanced by providing opinion-pieces which are clearly labelled as such, and (in a perfect world) refer to completely unopinionated material for context. So if you want to advance democracy, embrace discussing your world view, but only when you know that your audience is ready for that (e.g. by clearly labeling your writings as such, or by making sure that your peer actually wants to talk about this topic), and back-up your claims.

Re: “I Don't Like Your Examples” (2000)

#54
post #42

> The opinion that art should have nothing to do with politics is itself a political attitude. http://orwell.ru/library/essays/wiw/english/e_wiw Substitute art with anything else, it's still a political attitude. Politics relates to how we live together, or fail to live together, not something politicians do 24/7 and citizens do once every four years. And even that wasn't so (though it is) the author did point out th…

Great to see some sanity among all these comments!

Re: “I Don't Like Your Examples” (2000)

#55
post #46

I barely know who Kissinger is but the fact that the author admits it's controversial (in contrast to say calling Hitler a war criminal) is enough for me to avoid this guy's books at all cost. If I read a technical book I presume the examples are objective. If I would have read it without knowing anything beforehand I would take it literally and all of a sudden become a Kissinger hater without realizing it's actually…

I think perhaps you may be conflating "non-controversial" opinions with "objective" opinions. As the author writes:

> The Hidden and Prevailing Ideology

> I believe that just about every technical book comes with a body of politics, an ideology that governs and usually restricts its example set. We don't notice the political slant because it reflects the dominant viewpoint in our society and is thus invisible.

Or more generally -- the status quo is highly political. If you choose to follow a mainstream or establishment viewpoint, it does not logically follow that this mainstream viewpoint is objective or true or correct or laudable, although in some cases it may be. It gets more worrying when you don't consciously realise you've made a choice.

But yes, perhaps accidentally absorbing and signalling non-mainstream subjective political opinions could be hazardous to your career / participation in society / life , but that has nothing to do with the truth or otherwise of those political opinions.

Re: “I Don't Like Your Examples” (2000)

#57
post #2

I think I disagree with him here. I tend to think that examples like his (polarizing topics) are distracting to the message of the content. I teach students, and they are, quite literally, paying me for my knowledge and experience about that subject, not for me to distract everyone with my personal opinions about unrelated issues. I doubt that any of them even know my political beliefs.

Well, I see where you are coming from, and I don't necessarily agree that the examples he chose are very good ones. However, I think the overall point he makes is worth some consideration. Many technical books (consciously or unconsciously on part of the author) frame software as something that primarily satisfies commercial or business interests. If you want, that in itself is a pretty polarising agenda, and I often…

The birthday party example makes database look pointless. I can imagine company big enough to need database for employees, birthday party is more practical inside a text file.

I strongly prefer those democratic controversies not affecting my work. One reason for keeping it out is so that people who think each others opinions are horrible/unnatural can still produce work together.

Re: “I Don't Like Your Examples” (2000)

#58
I really liked this article.

More and more I feel as though my life and the lives of so many people around me is cheapened as we are treated as tools to generate growth and consumption.

I long for a world where I and those around me are working to make a world that has moved far beyond the consumerism and the competition attitude. I want to collaborate with my fellow people, not compete with them. This is possible for all digitizable value, but it takes work to build a library of wealth not held down by intellectual property restrictions.

It is possible though.

Re: “I Don't Like Your Examples” (2000)

#60

Interesting. I'm still processing this essay. Perhaps the problem to many is that this approach interrupts the flow necessary for fast learning. When I read a technical tome, I'm trying to understand the technical content as rapidly as I can. Trying to consider the political points, even if I agree with them, would greatly slow my learning via distraction and thus would inhibit the reason I paid for the book. It does…

I dunno, I don't feel a need for flow when learning, and tone-heavy works are oftenjoying my favorite. For example, Learn You A Haskell For Great Good is one of my favorite language introductions, and also very heavy on random colorful tidbits that might distract fom pure technical information.
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