I don’t want to be a software developer anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#51

Post by claudiulodro » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 3:36 PM UTC

jameskegel wrote: post #11

I read the article; I'm not sure this is so much a criticism of the industry as it is an examination of this developer's personal anecdotal experience. As developers, we lead a very charmed life that others sometimes aren't even born with the chance to intellectually compete for; the author neglects to address how lucky we are to be able to do this at all, let alone to then find employment in it. If it's not an indus…

I was a furniture upholsterer. It was super interesting, good exercise, and really required a lot of analytic thinking. I loved upholstery. However, I wasn't able to support a wife and kid on an upholsterer's paycheck. An employee upholsterer starts at $10/hour for a junior up to a high-range of $20/hr for 10+ years experience. Now I'm a software developer making multiples higher more income. I like it OK and I can provide a cushy life for my family.

Upholstery was the best. I miss upholstery. I don't see any way I could feasibly switch back to it, though.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#52

Post by arkh » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 3:36 PM UTC

zimablue wrote: post #37

nickthemagicman wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, messed up but it makes an interesting point. Why don't people hire mostly women and save a bunch on payroll? Does the wage gap exist because companies pay women less due to being sexist or because of other confounding factors?

For one thing, the wage gap as you're usually used to seeing it presented doesn't mean what it's passed off as meaning. The media prints a number of "X% pay gap, women should stop working every year in July because they're paid that much less" and kind of presume that it means paid less for doing the same work. The gender pay gap number that is always reported is actually just an aggregate mean of salary across the p…

The solution as usual is to start working on programs to train new developers earlier instead of relying on colleges and CS curriculum.

Something like the apprenticeships you have in lot of trades.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#53

Post by zimablue » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 3:37 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #10

The realization that people I considered friends never really have been after that memo got to me too. They might like my presence, but I don't really count as a women should be to them and they never considered me good as they pretended to. Good thing I don't always get subtle social clues I guess. But the rest sounds like burnout. Old programmers I see around had all learned not to let companies burn them out.

You can be friends with someone without thinking they're the best developer you've ever met

You can also believe that trying to have a 50-50 at Google means the bar has been lowered without believing that about specific individual developers. I know a girl working at Improbable and I went to college with her, I have no doubt that she got there on merit.

If everyone takes every generalisation personally then we can't have any statistical reasoning

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#54

Post by Buttes » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 3:37 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #14

jaymzcampbell wrote: post #4

I feel like we as an industry can sometimes forget just how good we have it. Many of my friends do not work in tech, they are low paid, they have stressful jobs with little autonomy, they are not challenged at all and they feel little personal accomplishment in their day today. I appreciate the author alludes to this but having seen friends recently job hunting (outside of tech) I am reminded that even on the worst d…

I have quite a lot of autonomy now, but most programing positions don't have much autonomy. Between scrum, code review, management and architects, there is very little that is "on you".

Seriously tons of programmers just churn through tickets written by other people all day, its 100% process, they're part of an assembly line.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#55

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 3:37 PM UTC

ironjunkie wrote: post #36

dep_b wrote: post #12

It's kind of weird how people in the US seem to struggle with work life balance. I'm constantly working for US companies remote from outside the US and I can work +/-40 hours per week without any problem.

It took me a while to understand this also especially in the US where everyone complain all the time they work 80 hours a week, especially in tech. In my experience, only a very small fraction of those claiming to do >45hours a week are actually working that much. I think for a lot it provides them a subconscious feeling of importance, and/or an excuse for failed goals in their personal life.

The trouble with programming is it is virtually impossible to measure. If I employ a brick layer I can count how many bricks they lay and whether the wall is straight.

Management in our industry doesn't have this luxury and programmers realise it. The inevitable result is people start to measure how long your seat is kept warm and use that as a poor proxy for productivity. You also start to see politics seeping into everything.

If you are lucky with your employer you might be able to avoid it but I think that is unusual.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#56

Post by fpisfun » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

To be honest I had started to hate programming and the industry overall until I started learning functional programming and about category theory, etc. It turns out I've been working on crap my whole career, at least in my opinion, and that's why most of my time has been spent fixing bugs, slowly adding new features while working around horrible design. Working on crappy software with crappy design and crappy developers is terrible but this isn't how it has to be. Now I don't ever see myself getting out of the industry as, even if I'm managing my own company or working as a manager for someone else, I'm always going to do some coding and manage things at the code level because it's fun when you're doing things right and it's also extremely important.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#57

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

johnrichardson wrote: post #6

In my experience, it's counterproductive to code more than 4-5 hours per day. At a certain point you start introducing bugs/inadvertent complexity whose negatives outweigh any feature contributions you're making. There's lots of research which bears this out. E.g., https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-4...

I've been working 3-4 hour days for years now, however the only reason I can do this is because I work for myself.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#58

Post by mynameishere » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

folknor wrote: post #16

I really struggle to find anything worth reacting to in this blog post. It sounds to me like the story of every individual worker in every economy. Most of what she says is entirely self-evident, except for the anecdotes about pay/equity, for which she presents zero evidence. Where is the substance? Why is this interesting? Every dad in the world knows that a hobby is different from work, and that turning your hobby…

No great analysis needed: People enjoy complaining. You could make this person empress of the universe and she'd be complaining still.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#59

Post by jorgemf » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

First of all. It is called Software engineering for a reason. Engineering means to handle big problems in a way they can be solved by a company in an efficient way.

Second, women earn 20% less in average, yes, but for the same position the earn the same as men. The problem is women in top positions. That is why companies don't go crazy to hire women because they are not cheaper (otherwise the company would be in a big legal problem).

Said so, maybe the author would be happier working for smaller companies with smaller products where she can have a bigger impact on the final product. Even so, it is very unlikely a single programmer would be in charge of product specification, design and development. Those are very different things, and even in a small startup there are specific roles for those positions.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#60

Post by retSava » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 3:42 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #15

jaymzcampbell wrote: post #4

I feel like we as an industry can sometimes forget just how good we have it. Many of my friends do not work in tech, they are low paid, they have stressful jobs with little autonomy, they are not challenged at all and they feel little personal accomplishment in their day today. I appreciate the author alludes to this but having seen friends recently job hunting (outside of tech) I am reminded that even on the worst d…

You don't have to like your job, but it's perfectly reasonable to expect equitable treatment and a non-hazardous work setup. Injuries from bad ergonomics are real. I am dealing with a pinched nerve in my neck from 10 years of this and some days can barely sit up straight. I get that there are people starving in China. It's not an issue of wanting a perfect job. I actually used to really enjoy my work before the pain…

The author says she didn't bring it up since she was afraid it would negatively impact her career. While I can certainly understand this is a real fear that is grounded in reality, I also feel that she has a responsibility to lift the issue internally to get appropriate furniture, tools (eg ergonomic keyboard), and treatment.