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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#51

Post by mattmanser »

wjnc wrote: post #31
jacquesm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear Tim, You don't understand how shares work. Shareholders can only benefit from shares in two ways: through speculation about the share price or through dividends. I'm kind of disappointed that I'd have to explain to a man of your stature that money that Apple parks abroad will not benefit the shareholders except in the most indirect ways. If Apple brought home their overseas funds then it would benefit the US and…

Dear Jacques (i'll stop with the game now ;) - I really emphatise with the social responsibility part of the story. The game Apple is playing with stored cash abroad is abject. Nobody is profiting from that. But we can agree that it's not the nature of a corporation to pay more taxes than necessary? If people offer you crazy deals: agree. Governments should coordinate not to make crazy offers and perhaps even tit-for…

That's a quite modern idea, businesses can be socially responsible, but somehow the recent thinking is that they should dodge as much tax as possible because somehow that's their priority.

It's a moral decision to dodge tax, not a requirement that their shareholders can sue over. That's just a (very thin) excuse.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#52

Post by icebraining »

jacquesm wrote: post #25
wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

Dear Tim, You don't understand how shares work. Shareholders can only benefit from shares in two ways: through speculation about the share price or through dividends. I'm kind of disappointed that I'd have to explain to a man of your stature that money that Apple parks abroad will not benefit the shareholders except in the most indirect ways. If Apple brought home their overseas funds then it would benefit the US and…

Most cash "parked" abroad is being invested in stocks and other financial instruments - and much of it in the US - not kept in a checking bank account. In fact, Apple's "Irish money" is managed by an Apple subsidiary in Reno, Nevada, and is invested in all kinds of assets in the US.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#53

Post by jacquesm »

csomar wrote: post #45
jacquesm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear Tim, You don't understand how shares work. Shareholders can only benefit from shares in two ways: through speculation about the share price or through dividends. I'm kind of disappointed that I'd have to explain to a man of your stature that money that Apple parks abroad will not benefit the shareholders except in the most indirect ways. If Apple brought home their overseas funds then it would benefit the US and…

> Having money parked abroad waiting for a tax amnesty that may never happen Except that, Trump, (who paradoxically hate tech companies) is pushing for this tax amnesty. In that case parking money aboard paid big time for shareholders.

You can safely assume that Trump pushing for a tax amnesty does not have small-time shareholders of public companies in mind. I'd look a little closer at his inner circle where the major beneficiaries of such a move reside.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#54

Post by speedplane »

jlebrech wrote: post #35
speedplane wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your accountant was structuring your finances so it appeared your income came from countries other than where you worked, then yes, he should probably be punished.

if something isn't right but is legal, it should be made illegal. you cannot prosecute abuse prior to the change.

The problem is that these companies through their lobbying power can influence governments and decide what is and isn't legal. If you define what is legal, you can legally do whatever you want.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#55

Post by thisisit »

jacquesm wrote: post #25
wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

Dear Tim, You don't understand how shares work. Shareholders can only benefit from shares in two ways: through speculation about the share price or through dividends. I'm kind of disappointed that I'd have to explain to a man of your stature that money that Apple parks abroad will not benefit the shareholders except in the most indirect ways. If Apple brought home their overseas funds then it would benefit the US and…

> Money left over could be used to pay dividends to shareholders or to doa tech acquisitions or long term investments in Apple projects which would benefit the shareholders in a more direct fashion.

I don't have an opinion on their tax strategies but the money saved is not sitting in a box waiting for amensty. It is used to fund R&D and acquisitions. Though they can offset or sell the results to an offshore Apple entity so that they pay lower taxes.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#56

Post by tankenmate »

fastball wrote: post #33
bauerd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what your argument is. Is it (a) that tax avoidance is morally justified, (b) morally justified only in the business context or (c) not of concern, because the business and the moral are two separate contexts?

I think tax avoidance is morally justified. EDIT: Better phrasing - I think tax avoidance is not a moral problem. Laws are a moral problem, and tax avoidance is not against the law. /EDIT The entity making the tax code (the government) and the entity that collects taxes (the government) are one in the same. If the government wants me, as an individual or business, to pay taxes at a certain rate X, they should write t…

And I think that it is morally justified that I should be able to use roads, send my kids to school, and drink water that has been paid for by all those not smart enough or earn billions enough to avoid paying taxes. I think it is morally right that I shouldn't pay my fair share because I and my other well heeled chaps can lobby governments in some small country to pay 25 times less tax than others. I think it is morally right to do whatever I want as long as it is legal (in some country I can influence) regardless of how much it costs others. In short I think it is morally justified to be legally and unconscionably unfair to others.

Sir, in short, your moral arguments are non sequitur.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#57

Post by walshemj »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #28
wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

There's maybe an interesting illustration here of the difference between morals ("do the right thing") and ethics ("follow the rules"). A lot of people like to emphasize that they've "acted ethically", knowing that people will misunderstand that as "I did the right thing" when they actually mean "I did everything I could technically get away with".

No ethics does not mean just following the rules

The definition is "moral principles that govern a person's behaviour or the conducting of an activity"

A LE person is not ethical because they follow the rules - to use a DnD Trope

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#58

Post by wslh »

ELI5: why Wolfgang Krach needed the paradise papers to write this letter? Are paradise papers just an information leak that don't contribute to solving any problem? Except obviously when you can find plain corruption based on these papers.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#59

Post by crdb »

jacquesm wrote: post #25
wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

Dear Tim, You don't understand how shares work. Shareholders can only benefit from shares in two ways: through speculation about the share price or through dividends. I'm kind of disappointed that I'd have to explain to a man of your stature that money that Apple parks abroad will not benefit the shareholders except in the most indirect ways. If Apple brought home their overseas funds then it would benefit the US and…

> Money left over could be used to pay dividends to shareholders or to do tech acquisitions or long term investments in Apple projects which would benefit the shareholders in a more direct fashion.

This assumption is incorrect in a world where the US is only about 40% of Apple's revenue and slowly dropping (eyeballing from [1], happy to be corrected). If you are going to be investing to grow your revenue outside the US, it makes no sense to repatriate the cash generated there already.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/382175/quarterly-revenue...

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