House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit • Hacker News Board

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#51

Post by SilasX » Thu, Nov 02, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #24

NeonVice wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

O&G companies are able to write off the cost of doing business just like other businesses. They are not "subsidies". https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunki...

It’s a ballsy move to compare the oil and gas industries to health. There is plenty to criticise about the way the US healthcare system is run, but do people really begrudge treating the two industries differently?

Yes, I do begrudge the dickens out of people who insist that being able to deduct oil exploration costs is an unfair "subsidy" to oil and whose removal would instantly turbocharge renewables by itself.

Letting companies deduct expenses like everyone else is not a subsidy.

It's like it's become part of the common mythos, that US oil companies get massive cash subsidies that are the sole reason they're not beaten by renewables, but the moment you apply any scrutiny it falls apart.

(Environmental concerns are legit, but the lack of better regulation is a non-standard usage of "subsidy" and people go further to claim that tax-deductions-everyone-gets are subsidies.)

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#52

Post by michaelt » Thu, Nov 02, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

NeonVice wrote: post #15

ghouse wrote: post #2

And if they scrap oil subsidies too, the market can figure it all out. But looks like most direct and indirect O&G subsidies will remain.

O&G companies are able to write off the cost of doing business just like other businesses. They are not "subsidies". https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunki...

If I run a paint factory and all my competitors have to pay to to have their toxic waste hauled away and properly disposed of, but the taxpayer foots the bill for disposing my waste, that sounds like a subsidy to me.

Does it cease to be a subsidy if I'm dumping the waste in a river and the government is hauling it away from there, rather than collecting it at the factory gate?

Seems to me anyone who's opposed to government subsidies would also be opposed to profiting from negative externalities.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#53

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 02, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #38

ellyagg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the biggest specific subsidy of oil or gas right now that you know about?

> What's the biggest specific subsidy of oil or gas right now that you know about? The lack of a carbon cap. And also the fact that large ships and buildings are allowed to burn oil sludge without particulate filters.

[deleted]

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#54

Post by Rebelgecko » Thu, Nov 02, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

bkohlmann wrote: post #27

dragontamer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Mortgage Interest is dropping from 1-million to 500k. * State / Local tax disproportionately benefits richer states (which tend to have higher income taxes). That's also going away. The real issue IMO is that the standard deduction is going up, and the top tax rate is going down. The overall effect seems to be a tax-increase for me and a tax-decrease to those who are richer than me. They probably should close the b…

The top tax rate is NOT going down. It remains at 39% under the proposal released by the House today.

The top marginal rate is the same, but because they're moving the brackets you can make twice as much money before you pay 39%(for a married couple)

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#55

Post by JosephLark » Thu, Nov 02, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

rukittenme wrote: post #37

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

Of course things get framed to manipulate opinion.

Now, I actually don't mean this with any snark, but how is what you're doing any different? This tax credit applies to plenty of vehicles sold for much less than $100,000.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#56

Post by belltaco » Thu, Nov 02, 2017, 5:55 PM UTC

rukittenme wrote: post #37

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

>that is also assuming electric cars (in their current state) are less impactful than fossil fuel vehicles (which isn't the case)

Is that true? Got a reference?

The problem is that external costs like pollution are not being priced into the cost of ICE vehicles by, say, a pollution tax. This limited subsidy is a backhanded way of doing that.

I don't see the issue with rich people benefiting from it, because it's exactly those rich people buying 100K Teslas that are paying for the cost of driving research into better battery technology and cheaper cars so everyone benefits from cleaner air and reduced global warming.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#57

Post by kadenshep » Thu, Nov 02, 2017, 5:55 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #39

lostlogin wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being reliant on it would have a massive effect on the Middle East. Whatever stability they have now would go. That aspect would need a lot of care, and the West’s track record is not good.

It's not clear that oil revenues actually improve stability in the Mideast. A considerable proportion of the revenue is quite literally diverted into forces intended to cause states to fail or stagnate.

>A considerable proportion of the revenue is quite literally diverted into forces intended to cause states to fail or stagnate.

Yeah you're gonna need a credible source on that claim.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#58

Post by Cshelton » Thu, Nov 02, 2017, 5:55 PM UTC

rukittenme wrote: post #37

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

Also it is a tax credit.. meaning you only get the $7,500 if you actually owe at least $7,5000.. AFTER the standard deduction. Basically, anyone with under ~$100k annual income would not even receive the whole credit, if any at all.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#59

Post by beal » Thu, Nov 02, 2017, 5:56 PM UTC

rukittenme wrote: post #37

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

Yep. I am pretty left leaning on environmental and economic issues. But the tax credit from the start was a redistribution of wealth upwards. A side effect being that more hybrid cars were bought.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#60

Post by notheguyouthink » Thu, Nov 02, 2017, 5:56 PM UTC

rukittenme wrote: post #37

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

Yea, I'd be far happier scrapping this and putting an even bigger credit given some requirements. As a fake example: %10 discount on electric cars @45k. %15 discount for electric cars at 25-45k. 25% discount for cars below 25k.

Way too much I'm sure, but that's besides the point. The lowest tier there is one of the most important imo. Because you're absolutely right, buying used combustion cars is what credits like this should be targeting, imo. Conceptually at least, I clearly know nothing of what I talk about.