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The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

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Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#51

Post by davidw »

barsonme wrote: post #26
davidw wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. What kinds of things has your group accomplished? I'm not a conservative, but the Sierra Club will never see a dime from me until they lay off mountain bikers. It seems so stupid to antagonize a group that could share about 99% of what they want to accomplish.

We have a few different ways we're approaching this. In no particular order we: 1) Work with college republicans to introduce them to environmentalism. We saw lots of success here during National Clean Energy Week where we held events and had 20 CR chairs sign on to our clean energy pledge ( https://www.acc.eco/cr-clean-energy-coalition ) and we have 25 pilot campuses we're partnering with. We hope to more than doubl…

> 4) Work with city and county county officials to assist with their environmental policy. (This one has been my favorite to watch take off.)

This one is so ripe for bipartisanship:

https://www.brookings.edu/research/reforming-land-use-regula...

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#52

Post by jhauris »

takk309 wrote: post #30

I live in Bozeman and have made many trips to the Crazy Mountains over the years and can say that this article hits the nail on the head. This isn't just an issue in the Crazies either. Almost every mountain range in the region has some sort of land access issue. In the Bridger Range, just west of the Crazies, the Forest Service choose to reroute a trail to avoid a legal battle. Other examples include places that the…

Are there places they can't reroute the trail? That seems like the natural solution.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#53

Post by 24gttghh »

davidw wrote: post #18
barsonme wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than using the federal lands more _and_ contacting your representatives (via phone!!) to express your support for keeping public federal lands, yes, donate. While your money probably won't be ill-spent with your run-of-the-mill environmental groups, I'd really recommend searching out right-leaning groups that support public federal lands, like the American Conservation Coalition ( https://acc.eco ). Sadly, the…

Interesting. What kinds of things has your group accomplished? I'm not a conservative, but the Sierra Club will never see a dime from me until they lay off mountain bikers. It seems so stupid to antagonize a group that could share about 99% of what they want to accomplish.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Sierra Club only opposed mtn biking in designated Wilderness Areas, which only make up 36M out of 192M NFS acerage.[0] (That's 145,000 km^2 out of 780,000 km^2)

Those areas really should just be left alone as much as possible. The White Mountain National Forest doesn't even like expanding or maintaining the leantos in much of their Wilderness Areas, so it's not like Mtn biking is singled out in my area. FWIW I love mountain biking and helping to build singletrack as much as possible, but I also like visiting the sublimely quiet wilderness areas with only my own two feet as my way into those natural cathedrals.

[0]https://www.fs.fed.us/land/staff/lar/LAR2011/LAR2011_Book_A5...

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#54

Post by jandrewrogers »

takk309 wrote: post #49
jandrewrogers wrote: post #45

This is a complicated topic. I used to own the lower part of a mountain valley (out west but not in Montana). There were two dirt "roads" into the valley, both immediately against the titled property; the rest of the valley was Federal (BLM) land encircled by mountains that were effectively impassable. Americans generally have a right to use and temporarily occupy these Federal lands without permission, so if I put u…

The whole "locals only" thing is just as bad. How do you communicate to the locals what is okay and what is not? How do you define locals? Is it just those that live on the same road, those that you run into at the store? It has to be all or nothing. That is really what sucks with the whole situation.

Yes, it does suck.

You are taking "locals" a bit too literally. It is just a social convention and these are small communities, it is generally understood that unless the property owner has socialized something different, those signs are for mining companies, yahoos from the city, etc. A lot of times if you are not from the area, you can often ask one of the local people the purpose of a sign in some area based on what you want to do. They'll often tell you that you can ignore it as long as you are just passing through. The signs are there to discourage people. In fact, they'll appreciate that you bothered to ask.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#55

Post by sliverstorm »

wavefunction wrote: post #44
typeformer wrote: post #40

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

You get some rich people from somewhere else who move in and throw all local culture and tradition away. It's happening in Colorado. Every Fourteener (14,000+ foot mountains) used to be publicly accessible but we got some greedy folks who moved in and shut down that traditional access to at least five of them so far. If I ever come into a sizable fortune my plan is to acquire these lands and turn them over to the pub…

I share your dream plan, but with the public lands transfer movement fear the Fed would one day soon turn around and sell the bequeathment for a song. It might not happen today or this decade, but public lands are not immutable.

So then I wonder if the best option is to set up some kind of management trust.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#57

Post by sliverstorm »

typeformer wrote: post #40

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

tech per se isn't the main force killing MT, or the west, it's mostly our values that are.

Which values? Can you expand a little? I have guesses, but would like to hear from you.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#58

Post by adrianratnapala »

takk309 wrote: post #49
jandrewrogers wrote: post #45

This is a complicated topic. I used to own the lower part of a mountain valley (out west but not in Montana). There were two dirt "roads" into the valley, both immediately against the titled property; the rest of the valley was Federal (BLM) land encircled by mountains that were effectively impassable. Americans generally have a right to use and temporarily occupy these Federal lands without permission, so if I put u…

The whole "locals only" thing is just as bad. How do you communicate to the locals what is okay and what is not? How do you define locals? Is it just those that live on the same road, those that you run into at the store? It has to be all or nothing. That is really what sucks with the whole situation.

Probably a "local" in this context is anyone who is close enough to jandrewrogers' circle that these things are communicated through the grapevine and tacit common understanding.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#59

Post by ewhanley »

typeformer wrote: post #40

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

I grew up in central Montana but now live on the west coast too, and I’m astonished at how quickly it’s changing. The bellwether for me is the fact that stream access law* is being challenged (most notably by Gianforte and other wealthy, often absentee landowners). If public stream access is lost, I’ll know the state and it’s civic makeup has changed irreversibly. *Everything below the high water mark is publicly accessible per Montana state law.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#60

Post by sliverstorm »

kharms wrote: post #17
barsonme wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than using the federal lands more _and_ contacting your representatives (via phone!!) to express your support for keeping public federal lands, yes, donate. While your money probably won't be ill-spent with your run-of-the-mill environmental groups, I'd really recommend searching out right-leaning groups that support public federal lands, like the American Conservation Coalition ( https://acc.eco ). Sadly, the…

Why do you recommend seeking out right-leaning groups?

The right controls the government today. The right listens to right-leaning hunting groups a lot more than left-leaning conservation groups. See Chaffetz's rescinded bill from earlier this year.
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