Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform • Hacker News Board

Re: Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform

#51

Post by raesene6 » Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 12:50 PM UTC

grabcocque wrote: post #16

amouat wrote: post #12

This really helps with the dev-to-production story for containers. When people first started using Docker containers, we were promised things would run identically in dev and production - no more "but it worked on my laptop" issues. Then the rise of orchestrators meant that there again became a significant difference between running an app locally (in compose) and in production (on Kubernetes). Docker for Mac/Windows…

There's minikube. There's been minikube for a long while.

I like minikube for some things, but I'm hoping this will be better by allowing for multiple K8s nodes to be spun up which is handy for some learning/training scenarios

Re: Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform

#52

Post by raesene6 » Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 12:53 PM UTC

stonewhite wrote: post #38

Disregarding the swarm compatibility bit (which is irrelevant because swarm is kind of irrelevant), I don't really like what this "support" really means. As others mentioned minikube and k8s-cluster is already providing dev-to-prod compatibility. Kubectl was already providing docker cli commands like "exec" "logs" etc. So you can execute some of these commands on a k8 cluster with the docker binary too? And why would…

Not really sure I see the vendor lock-in here. If you use Docker EE sure you're going to be locked in to their solutions to an extent but then that's true of adopting any commercial supported solution that provides layers on top of the base k8s clustering tech (e.g. Openshift).

The API is still k8s and the YAML files are identical, so migration at a technical level off that platform should be easy enough.

I think this move is about Docker maintaining the trajectory in enterprise where people want the management GUIs and extra features but where Kubernetes and particularly Openshift is making progress at the expense of Docker EE.

Re: Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform

#53

Post by InTheArena » Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 1:05 PM UTC

Great news for everyone except for VMWare (this is a simple compelling operating system for data centers that spans both windows and mac) and Openshift (which was one of the few viable ways of actually purchasing Kubernetes support). A lot of egos on both sides had to be suppressed to make this happen. Docker Swarm was a key driver in making Kubernetes popular because everyone realized that they needed swarm, but the implementation was so poor, no one could use it. That kicked K8s up into hyperdrive. Parts of the K8s community have been particularly partisan in doing everything they can to minimize docker.

Hopefully both sides _now_ come together and sing kumbaya, and we don't see a continuing KDE versus Gnome war a embrace and extend attitude by Docker or a continuing push to marginalize docker by the Kubernetes folks.

Re: Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform

#54

Post by InTheArena » Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 1:06 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #49

user15128 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in order to test your app in prod-like env you need to run prod-like env locally. ie. a k8s-cluster that is close enough to prod. for that you will have to at least simulate multi-node-setup and run all cluster-addons like in production. i am excited about this move from docker but i don't think it will solve all the problems. i think once you have a bigger team it is worthwhile to run a second k8s-cluster besides pr…

Not necessarily, we have been using k8s for a while now where I work and what we've been doing is running a simple minikube setup locally, with the production add-ons (DNS, nginx ingress controllers, etc.) and circumventing what is AWS-related. It's been working quite well, no need for multi-node-setup so far that I'm aware of.

PV volume support and failover has proven to not work very well on single nodes. Otherwise I agree.

Re: Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform

#55

Post by bankss » Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 1:06 PM UTC

mrmondo wrote: post #10

sz4kerto wrote: post #7

Seems that people think Docker has gave in, but I am not that sure. If you can switch between Swarm/Kubernetes transparently, then why wouldn't you start with Swarm? (I'm talking about small companies who're just starting with containers.)

Why wouldn’t you start with Kubes? Less vendor lock in and a much bigger community.

I think several others have commented on this, but the learning curve of Swarm seems insignificant to the setup and implementation of a k8s cluster.

I work with a team of four total developers and realistically two of us handle the vast majority of "operations." As a result, what was important for us in orchestration was ease of setup, speed of initial implementation, and the lowest immediate and ongoing difficulty associated with whichever orchestration tooling we chose.

Re: Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform

#56

Post by InTheArena » Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 1:10 PM UTC

stonewhite wrote: post #38

Disregarding the swarm compatibility bit (which is irrelevant because swarm is kind of irrelevant), I don't really like what this "support" really means. As others mentioned minikube and k8s-cluster is already providing dev-to-prod compatibility. Kubectl was already providing docker cli commands like "exec" "logs" etc. So you can execute some of these commands on a k8 cluster with the docker binary too? And why would…

And it's a pain to setup, there is no key way to get a supportable license across all of them, breaks with each new K8s or Docker release, etc.

Hopefully this is K8s, but with Swarm simplicity to get started.

Re: Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform

#57

Post by InTheArena » Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 1:12 PM UTC

ntnn wrote: post #50

shykes wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're going to support Linux also. But we want to careful not to disrupt the users of the original container engine, as we transition it to Moby. In the future there will be a cleaner separation between "Docker CE, the developer tools" and "Moby engine, the open-source container engine". The last thing we want is someone to upgrade their production Linux engine to find an unexpected and unwanted kubernetes distributi…

That sounds like a shoehorned explanation. You're leaving developers on linux out to dry because people aren't paying attention to their production systems? Don't get me wrong, the work you guys do is cool and all, but that isn't a valid explanation from my point of view. Any company should have some sort of staging to test updated before rolling them out - it isn't up to the developers of the software to take care o…

Yes, but think about the whipping we would (and have) given them in the past for bundling these things directly into the engine without sufficient time for testing, or good sep of concerns.

Re: Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform

#58

Post by caleblloyd » Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 1:12 PM UTC

This will give IT organizations the option of getting an Enterprise supported distribution of Kubernetes from Docker.

Historically, most IT orgs requiring supported k8s have either gone cloud with something like Google Container Engine or gone with OpenShift and get support from RedHat. OpenShift is a fork if kubernetes though and lags a year or so behind. It also adds opinionated features such as Image Streams.

Docker's announcement said they were using "real" kubernetes, not a fork or a wrapper. I've setup kubernetes by hand before and it is no easy feat. I'm looking forward to evaluating Docker's solution and maintenance upgrade process.

UPDATE: My goal with this post is not to sell people one way or another, but moreso to explain where some of Docker's reasoning for this integration is coming from.

Disclosure: I work for a Docker partner

Re: Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform

#59

Post by tachion » Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 1:14 PM UTC

caleblloyd wrote: post #58

This will give IT organizations the option of getting an Enterprise supported distribution of Kubernetes from Docker. Historically, most IT orgs requiring supported k8s have either gone cloud with something like Google Container Engine or gone with OpenShift and get support from RedHat. OpenShift is a fork if kubernetes though and lags a year or so behind. It also adds opinionated features such as Image Streams. Dock…

There is (and was for a while already) Kubernetes distribution called Tectonic, with enterprise support from CoreOS.

Re: Adding Kubernetes support to the Docker platform

#60

Post by InTheArena » Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 1:16 PM UTC

So now the last question is how long does it take for AWS to finally abandon ECS and formally support K8S as a service? I think this makes it kind of slam dunk, but it is forcing aWS to give up a lot of proprietary lock in.