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Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

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Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#51

Post by jasode »

>original: Your code will be exercised by 125,000 events every second,

>revised: your contributions will be exercised by more than fifty billion events per day

Why does 125 * 10^3 vs 50 * 10^9 influence diversity hiring?

The scientific study the blog references does not mention anything about altering numerical figures (such as altering a numerator from 3 zeroes to 9 zeroes) to be more inclusive.

Also, why is "code" a taboo word for inclusiveness? Here's female Ginni Rometty using the phrase "lines of code".[1] Another female (also a non-programmer) Mary Barra using the phrase "lines of code".[2]

[1] "New cars today have 100 million lines of code": https://www.ibm.com/ibm/ginni/01_06_2016.html

[2] “A car today has hundreds of millions of lines of code,” : http://www.triplepundit.com/2017/07/gm-boosts-stem-education...

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#52

Post by whatyoucantsay »

dmitrygr wrote: post #35
Kluny wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll tackle this. - If they are expected to do 5-10 times the amount of software development as a regular new programmer, are they going to be offered 5-10 times the regular salary? - Are all the other programmers at the company dramatically more effective than a regular programmer? Most competent people don't think of themselves as being exceptionally better than their peers, so if that's the case, they probably sho…

> Many people who have developed exceptional skills in one area have neglected other areas. {{CITATION NEEDED}}

This is not Wikipedia.

All caps "CITATION NEEDED" comments provide no value. If you have an argument, make it. If you can refute the claims of other commenters and want to, then do so.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#53

Post by jordigh »

jasode wrote: post #51

>original: Your code will be exercised by 125,000 events every second, >revised: your contributions will be exercised by more than fifty billion events per day Why does 125 * 10^3 vs 50 * 10^9 influence diversity hiring? The scientific study the blog references does not mention anything about altering numerical figures (such as altering a numerator from 3 zeroes to 9 zeroes) to be more inclusive. Also, why is "code"…

I was reading Girl Code today:

https://www.girlcodethebook.com/

One of the girls there describes her expectation of coding as coming from Hollywood: indecipherable zeroes and ones, weird symbols, all very fast-paced. When she saw that it was just "System.out.println()" to make something appear on the screen, she realised how much more mundane this all was.

I guess this sort of suggests that "code" is some kind of secret, difficult thing, which may be off-putting to some people. I agree that most people wouldn't balk at the word "code", but if you can make even fewer people balk, why not do it? The worst that can happen is that you broaden your search and get more people applying for your job.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#54

Post by ng12 »

jordigh wrote: post #53
jasode wrote: post #51

>original: Your code will be exercised by 125,000 events every second, >revised: your contributions will be exercised by more than fifty billion events per day Why does 125 * 10^3 vs 50 * 10^9 influence diversity hiring? The scientific study the blog references does not mention anything about altering numerical figures (such as altering a numerator from 3 zeroes to 9 zeroes) to be more inclusive. Also, why is "code"…

I was reading Girl Code today: https://www.girlcodethebook.com/ One of the girls there describes her expectation of coding as coming from Hollywood: indecipherable zeroes and ones, weird symbols, all very fast-paced. When she saw that it was just "System.out.println()" to make something appear on the screen, she realised how much more mundane this all was. I guess this sort of suggests that "code" is some kind of sec…

Still not really a gendered thing. Nobody understands how tech works until they do it themselves.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#55

Post by hinkley »

jordigh wrote: post #2

At my current job, we used to advertise that we wanted someone with deep knowledge of Python, who had written their own Python metaclasses. How many of you know off the top of your head exactly what a metaclass is and why you would want to write one? While we did have one hand-rolled metaclass in our own codebase, it was just there, written long ago, worked fine, and didn't need any modification. None of us actually…

When someone asks me in a job conversation if I have some arcane bit of knowledge, I'm going to say yes if I know it, but I'm going to start worrying that they will expect me to use this sort of arcane knowledge on a regular basis.

And then I start wondering what else is wrong with them...

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#56

Post by interlocutor »

Kluny wrote: post #19
interlocutor wrote: post #13

Can someone define what a "rockstar programmer" is and why a company would want to not hire rockstar programmers? Here's one definition I found: http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=ChrisTTT A computer programmer with such strong skills and so much specific experience that they are the equivalent of a rock star in the domain of software. Many people play guitar pretty well, but only a few become rock star…

I'll tackle this. - If they are expected to do 5-10 times the amount of software development as a regular new programmer, are they going to be offered 5-10 times the regular salary? - Are all the other programmers at the company dramatically more effective than a regular programmer? Most competent people don't think of themselves as being exceptionally better than their peers, so if that's the case, they probably sho…

This is a shocking attitude. Assuming that a highly skilled software developer is more likely to have body odor, have poor social skills, be alcoholic, be sexually creepy, etc., is shocking to me.

Hiring managers that have this attitude are not the next Steve Jobs, that's for sure.

Steve Jobs specifically looked for the "multiplier factor" when hiring: In choosing key members of his team, he looks for the multiplier factor of excellence. Truly outstanding designers, engineers and managers, he says, are not just 10 percent, 20 percent or 30 percent better than merely very good ones, but 10 times better. Their contributions, he adds, are the raw material of “aha” products, which make users rethink their notions of, say, a music player or cellphone.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/31/weekinreview/31lohr.html

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#57

Post by rdiddly »

maxxxxx wrote: post #8

I would replace " No ninjas, rockstars or brogrammers, please; just nice, caring humans." with "Just nice, caring humans". "no..." sentences sound defensive to me.

If ninja, rockstar, and brogrammer are meaningless words, which they are, then the best course of action is to leave them out, not use them. If someone thinks they know what a ninja programmer is, and knows whether they are one, they've already thought more about it than you really want them to.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#59

Post by dang »

gertef wrote: post #27
maxxxxx wrote: post #8

I would replace " No ninjas, rockstars or brogrammers, please; just nice, caring humans." with "Just nice, caring humans". "no..." sentences sound defensive to me.

The first part is important to signal that you aren't just trying to find people to work with, but that you also want to join up in a culture war, and a culture war requires promoting ideas to hate instead of letting them fade away. Imagine how it would look if they wrote "no pushovers or girly-girls, please"

This breaks the HN guidelines, which ask:

Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize.

Avoiding plummets into flamewar is why we have that guideline, so please follow it, as you should follow all the guidelines at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#60

Post by dang »

dmitrygr wrote: post #35
Kluny wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll tackle this. - If they are expected to do 5-10 times the amount of software development as a regular new programmer, are they going to be offered 5-10 times the regular salary? - Are all the other programmers at the company dramatically more effective than a regular programmer? Most competent people don't think of themselves as being exceptionally better than their peers, so if that's the case, they probably sho…

> Many people who have developed exceptional skills in one area have neglected other areas. {{CITATION NEEDED}}

Please don't. In more ways than one, as you'll find out if you read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
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