Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue • Hacker News Board

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#51

Post by ufmace » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

zghst wrote: post #25

saulrh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? This is an interview with an author that was conducted specifically to talk about the book and the material in it. What did you expect ? Unrelated, I'd like to see your argument against that particular line. IMO the comparison is an excellent one; its only issue is that the chosen scope ("the financial market") is too small. Corporations and other bureaucratic entities like governments are powerful cross-domain…

Well I'd hope that we'd expect better when an author makes outrageous, nonsensical claims. They are rehashing the book instead of analyzing its claims and assessing its validity. Conveniently, the blame of all the issues are left on the firms instead of the rules of the marketplace, conditions, etc which lead to distortions and structural issues in the market.

I'd say this is what we call a Puff Piece. Something like 80% of all news is Puff Pieces or Hit Pieces on various things. There's not much practical difference between a Puff Piece and an ad, or a Hit Piece and an ad for the opposite side of whatever is getting hit.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#52

Post by s73ver_ » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 4:10 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #32

Capitalism is the best thing that's ever happened to humanity. The author's ideological bias gets in the way of understanding.

That doesn't mean it's not also bad for large swaths of humanity.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#53

Post by deong » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

zghst wrote: post #47

saulrh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that you're looking for a very different piece than this was intended to be. This is essentially a summary of the book. I don't know what the motive was, but it's probably something like "I believe that more people should hear these ideas". The treatment you're requesting would likely qualify as a doctoral thesis. The writers at Wired do not have the time, nor is it likely that they have the expertise, to c…

It is a poor attempt to reconcile the authors views within the industry that he exists within outside of the scope of the book. If they want to throw softballs fine. We are more than free to criticize his claims, free of a doctoral thesis, mind you.

Of course you're free to criticize his claims. It's just pointless to demand someone else do it for you. The interviewer here apparently felt there was a different purpose than they one you'd want. I'm not sure what your recommended remedy for that would be -- forbid him from doing the piece?

If you think the claims are "nonsense", then by all means, go off and write up your rebuttal.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#54

Post by grandalf » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

It's 2017 and humans have built several anemonae, and we have several highly profitable firms that are built around these anemonae.

Their employees act as the stewards (clownfish) more as beings in symbiosis than as one controlling the other. We can neither understand or pull the plug on these creatures. Time will tell which species evolves more rapidly.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#55

Post by s73ver_ » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

Iv wrote: post #2

Sorry but it is hard to take seriously someone who thinks AI and automation won't take away jobs. They will and it is a good thing.

Whether or not it's a good thing depends entirely on us as a society. We can either decide to free people up, and give them the freedom to do things without having to worry about bills or where their next meal is coming from, a la Star Trek, or we can continue to put the same capital requirements on living that we currently do, and end up with the Hunger Games.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#56

Post by mathgenius » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

> financial markets are the first rogue AI

How about this idea: the first rogue AI was language. In terms of AI as a compositional system for storing meaning, I think this might be a reasonable position to take. Yes people, we've been playing this game for a very long time...

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#57

Post by monsieurgaufre » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #32

Capitalism is the best thing that's ever happened to humanity. The author's ideological bias gets in the way of understanding.

Your own is as well. You make a strong claim without proving it.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#58

Post by s73ver_ » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

VincentEvans wrote: post #27

VincentEvans wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that models that are used to think about economy in aggregate somehow act as a guarantee that a life of an individual will not be wrecked as a result of large-scale automation.... well, lets discuss "lump of labor fallacy" when a former truck driver is "replacing" his job with 3 gig-economy part time jobs that sprung out as result of the "expanding economy". It's not that those models are wrong, it's tha…

To add to this, a bit: Our present political kerfuffle is no small way caused by collective feeling of anger by population who have seen their (industrial, mining, farming) jobs in rural america disappear due to globalization, while the market expanded .... elsewhere. In New York, in San Fran, in China, in India. And the money from that expansion did not go anywhere near those affected. But the upside is how much liv…

Kind of. Middle Class Chinese have had their lives improved quite a bit. Worker class Chinese, well, that situation seems fuzzier.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#59

Post by kosta_self » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #38

Have any of these tech "visionaries" (aka millionaires that we pretend have more insight than non-millionaires) considered that at the same time that we've increased our wealth we've also done more damage to our environment? If the cost of increased wealth is decreased habitat, will peak wealth result in the death of nature? Aside: people are still comparing AI to a machine that feels, and this is so stupid it boggle…

> The machine that creates paper clips will not kill off anyone who tries to turn it off because it does not have self-preservation

The idea here is that the algorithm tries to maximize its paperclip production and turning the machine off will definitely have a negative impact on its paperclip production. So the machine will take the most efficient measure to stop that negative impact.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#60

Post by s73ver_ » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

24gttghh wrote: post #8

Iv wrote: post #2

Sorry but it is hard to take seriously someone who thinks AI and automation won't take away jobs. They will and it is a good thing.

Who says the people won't rise up and attempt to destroy thinking machines in some kind of holy war? No one likes being marginalized.

But then the thinking machines will make machines of their own to protect them.