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Law of Jante

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Re: Law of Jante

#51

Post by yolio »

jernfrost wrote: post #28

I think foreigners tend to profoundly misunderstand what the law of Jante is about. It is not guidelines for how to behave in Scandinavia. It is a caricature we use ourselves to fight negative aspects of our culture. IMHO it is the negative aspects of things which are actually positive in Scandinavia. Humbleness, solidarity, consensus seeking, honesty are good Scandinavian virtuous. But there is always a flip side of…

I don't really find the law of jante very applicable to Scandinavia, at least not uniquely so. Scandinavia is in many ways one of the most individualistic places in the world, in terms of things like social values or religion.

It's seem like most people who mention the law either seem to describe things prevalent in many parts of the world, don't agree with egalitarianism or dislikes the fore mentioned individualism.

Re: Law of Jante

#52

Post by ThomPete »

Grustaf wrote: post #49
ThomPete wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humility is not what Jante Law is about. Jante Law is about conformity. You definitely don't have to live in Scandinavia to be a humble millionaire or even billionaire. In fact, one could argue that the successful people in Scandinavia are humble because of the fear of the Jante Law. All I was saying is that people who are successful mostly ignore the Jante Law otherwise they wouldn't try to become successful, to beg…

>In fact, one could argue that the successful people in Scandinavia are humble because of the fear of the Jante Law. This is pretty much what I _am_ arguing.

Ok, not sure how that contradicts what I said which was about becoming successful not about how you deal with the law.

Re: Law of Jante

#53

Post by paloaltokid »

yolio wrote: post #51
jernfrost wrote: post #28

I think foreigners tend to profoundly misunderstand what the law of Jante is about. It is not guidelines for how to behave in Scandinavia. It is a caricature we use ourselves to fight negative aspects of our culture. IMHO it is the negative aspects of things which are actually positive in Scandinavia. Humbleness, solidarity, consensus seeking, honesty are good Scandinavian virtuous. But there is always a flip side of…

I don't really find the law of jante very applicable to Scandinavia, at least not uniquely so. Scandinavia is in many ways one of the most individualistic places in the world, in terms of things like social values or religion. It's seem like most people who mention the law either seem to describe things prevalent in many parts of the world, don't agree with egalitarianism or dislikes the fore mentioned individualism.

How much time have you spent in Scandinavia? I grew up there and it's very much alive and well.

Re: Law of Jante

#54

Post by [deleted] »

interfixus wrote: post #39

Moderation and a comparatively egalitarian approach are quintessential Danish qualities, all too often thoughtlessly maligned and ridiculed. The fact is, for better or worse, these traits have served us well as a functioning society for the last thousand years, and in my guess, far longer back than that. A few data points: The last Danish regent or head of government to die violently was king Erik Klipping. The date…

[deleted]

Re: Law of Jante

#55

Post by yolio »

paloaltokid wrote: post #53
yolio wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really find the law of jante very applicable to Scandinavia, at least not uniquely so. Scandinavia is in many ways one of the most individualistic places in the world, in terms of things like social values or religion. It's seem like most people who mention the law either seem to describe things prevalent in many parts of the world, don't agree with egalitarianism or dislikes the fore mentioned individualism.

How much time have you spent in Scandinavia? I grew up there and it's very much alive and well.

Most of my life.

I don't deny there is a certain consensus driven culture with a general fear of conflict. But I don't agree that Scandinavia in particular has, as people tend to argue, a dislike for successful people nor necessarily of people being different, as long as there is also substance. Especially with there being so many well liked successful Scandinavians. It seems to me like people most often mean:

A) That the grass is greener somewhere else. Which can be true in many cases, but is usually more down to individual circumstances.

B) That they like more appreciation for their social status. As in more egalitarian societies few things are by themselves impressive.

C) Or that they actually want more collectivism and people to be invested in their success, in contrast to the sometimes cold Scandinavian individualism.

In term more destructive collectivism I think the US/UK (who loves to hate celebrities), central Europe (where everyone have only themselves to blame) and Asia (with a lot of social pressure) is worse.

Re: Law of Jante

#56

Post by jernfrost »

dixie_land wrote: post #34

are we seriously not gonna mention that this is a thing because Nordic countries have a homogeneous population? try not to stand out when you're the only person in the room that's not a 6 ft tall pale skinned blonde

Man why do people keep saying this dumb shit? Do you guys never watch FOX news about the impending takeover of Sweden by muslim immigrants? Anyway Scandinavia has been multi cultural for a few decades already. Most of my neighbours in Oslo are neither blonde nor Norwegian. I got thais, kosovars, pakistani, kurdish, vietnames, thamils etc neighbours.

Anyway Janteloven has nothing to do with physical appearance. It is about how you carry yourself.

Re: Law of Jante

#57

Post by jernfrost »

yolio wrote: post #51
jernfrost wrote: post #28

I think foreigners tend to profoundly misunderstand what the law of Jante is about. It is not guidelines for how to behave in Scandinavia. It is a caricature we use ourselves to fight negative aspects of our culture. IMHO it is the negative aspects of things which are actually positive in Scandinavia. Humbleness, solidarity, consensus seeking, honesty are good Scandinavian virtuous. But there is always a flip side of…

I don't really find the law of jante very applicable to Scandinavia, at least not uniquely so. Scandinavia is in many ways one of the most individualistic places in the world, in terms of things like social values or religion. It's seem like most people who mention the law either seem to describe things prevalent in many parts of the world, don't agree with egalitarianism or dislikes the fore mentioned individualism.

Yeah I think it is hard to explain scandinavia to people as it is both extremely indiviualistic and group oriented. The collectivism in Scandinavia is not quite like in asia, although there is some overlapping. My own experience with asian culture is that it is far more paternalistic and top down. Scandinavians tend to be extremely anti-elite and anti-hierarchy while at the same time placing a large trust in government.

Re: Law of Jante

#58

Post by strangecasts »

yolio wrote: post #51
jernfrost wrote: post #28

I think foreigners tend to profoundly misunderstand what the law of Jante is about. It is not guidelines for how to behave in Scandinavia. It is a caricature we use ourselves to fight negative aspects of our culture. IMHO it is the negative aspects of things which are actually positive in Scandinavia. Humbleness, solidarity, consensus seeking, honesty are good Scandinavian virtuous. But there is always a flip side of…

I don't really find the law of jante very applicable to Scandinavia, at least not uniquely so. Scandinavia is in many ways one of the most individualistic places in the world, in terms of things like social values or religion. It's seem like most people who mention the law either seem to describe things prevalent in many parts of the world, don't agree with egalitarianism or dislikes the fore mentioned individualism.

I think it's vital to keep in mind the setting of A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks when discussing it. The law is presented both as a result of, and a way of maintaining the large class divide in 1930s small towns like Jante: Calvinist work ethic and a lack of upward mobility festering into resentment for other working-class people.

This is why I'm a little skeptical of attempts to invoke it for modern Scandinavia (especially since it's become somewhat of a rhetorical bludgeon used in favor of tax cuts)

Re: Law of Jante

#59

Post by jernfrost »

FelixGommen wrote: post #50
interfixus wrote: post #39

Moderation and a comparatively egalitarian approach are quintessential Danish qualities, all too often thoughtlessly maligned and ridiculed. The fact is, for better or worse, these traits have served us well as a functioning society for the last thousand years, and in my guess, far longer back than that. A few data points: The last Danish regent or head of government to die violently was king Erik Klipping. The date…

Well I think the schleswig-holsteiners would disagree. They fought two wars before they were allowed to decide for themselves:-)

It is about scale. My country Norway was under Danish rule for 400 years, yet it was never anything like the oppression and brutality the Scottish and Irish experienced at the hands of the English. It is why despite Scandinavian having fought numerous wars agains each other, there is not much bad blood. None of the wars were really that terrible.

Telling was how Sweden and Norway fought when Norway declared independece in 1905. It did not last long because the Swedish king did not want to make Norwegians hate Swedes. Not the kind of thing that would ever have concerned and english king or people like Bismarch.

Re: Law of Jante

#60

Post by paulddraper »

dang wrote: post #30
paulddraper wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, I do think the Law of Jante exists in most small communities I live in a small community, and I think the opposite. What voters vote for wealth redistribution? Mostly urban areas. Where does Antifa corner someone with bad speech and beat them up? Urban areas. Where does gang violence (epitome of contrived us vs. them) happen? Urban areas.

This comment breaks the HN guidelines badly by bringing extraneous flamebait into a substantive and interesting thread, turning it into a political flamewar. That may not be arson but it is criminal negligence. Please don't do it in HN threads. It's up to each of us to prevent this, just like we don't light cigarettes at gas stations or let campfires smolder in dry forests. That's not hard. I feel like Smokey the Bea…

If you oppose genercism, you cut the thread too late; it's the previous one that discusses large vs small communities ...with zero support or examples. The comment you refer to was the more specific one on that subject.
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