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Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#51

Post by a_puppy »

pjc50 wrote: post #9

The answer seems to be "toxic masculinity". (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) > For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study > Boys also reported worse relationships with their male teachers > male teachers were three times as…

I object to the term "toxic masculinity". When social norms harm women, feminists call that "sexism"; but when social norms harm men, feminists call it "toxic masculinity", in order to deflect blame from society as a whole onto the men themselves.

> For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study

Many cultures have a norm that violence against men and boys is more acceptable than violence against women and girls; I think this difference in the schools is an instance of that norm. If the norm were reversed, the feminist movement would definitely call it "sexism", not "toxic femininity".

> The separation of students, teachers, and administrators into single-sex public schools may serve cultural and religious purposes, but it seems to create an unintentional ghetto for boys

Historically, many universities in the United States were segregated by gender, leading to worse outcomes for female students. The feminist movement called this "sexism", not "toxic femininity".

> “Boys don’t feel that school can necessarily help them reach manhood.”

In the United States, STEM is traditionally seen as a masculine field, which is part of the reason why fewer women choose STEM subjects. This could be phrased as "Girls don't feel that STEM subjects can help them reach womanhood." The feminist movement calls this "sexism", not "toxic femininity".

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#52

Post by aaron695 »

I thought it was well known and shown in the west, splitting boys from girls in classes meant girls were better off and boys were worse off.

Can't find anything to cite(lazy) but have never seen anything that contradicted it.

I just took it as a simple obvious girls temper boys behaviour.

It is an interesting moral issue. Do you let girls be worse off for the common social good?

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#53

Post by pjc50 »

a_puppy wrote: post #51
pjc50 wrote: post #9

The answer seems to be "toxic masculinity". (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) > For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study > Boys also reported worse relationships with their male teachers > male teachers were three times as…

I object to the term "toxic masculinity". When social norms harm women, feminists call that "sexism"; but when social norms harm men, feminists call it "toxic masculinity", in order to deflect blame from society as a whole onto the men themselves. > For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study Many cultures have a norm that violence against men and boys is more acceptable than violence ag…

> When social norms harm women, feminists call that "sexism"; but when social norms harm men

The usual phrase for this used by feminists is "Patriarchy hurts men too".

> many universities in the United States were segregated by gender

This wasn't entirely the free choice of the women, no? And where it persists part of the rationale is avoiding harassment by male students.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#54

Post by gkya »

e40 wrote: post #34
gkya wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second this. I'm from Turkey, we don't have gender separation in education, but your quotes hold. Also, being geeky at school is mostly a feminine thing, and not caring about school is way cooler . The result being girls usually do better in most circumstances.

I wonder if this has the effect of making males feel resentment toward females, and thus making the already great number of problems between males and females even greater.

Wrt Turkey we have many different cultures coexisting (even though we pretend otherwise) and teh answer depends on which one you pick. But for the more poor it has an indirect effect, where the general ignorance of common working class recent emigrant men provoke lots of tension in families, economical and not. But blanket statements in this regard wrt Turkey is like talking of Greece, Italy, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia as a single cultural entity.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#55

Post by Jtsummers »

thesmallestcat wrote: post #40
tomp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) I'd suggest that the term itself is toxic (and/or sexist). If you think otherwise, can you suggest examples of (stereotypically) masculine behaviours that aren't considered toxic, but positive by the mainstream public/m…

Hear hear, and I'd prefer people stop overusing "toxic." Not everything that's bad, or that you disagree with, is "toxic." The person who screws with your team dynamic is not "toxic."

"toxic" is not a bad word. It's a perfectly appropriate word to describe many things, including "toxic employees". Toxic means poisonous. It is quite possible for a person to be poisonous to a community (family, relationships, friendships, workplaces). They bring the group down, they disrupt the relationships between people ("poisoning" them). Often by their words: pointing out issues and exaggerating their significance, constant harping on specific topics and inability to move on. Sometimes by their actions: inability to meet expectations, inability to keep promises or obligations.

The term may get abused by some people who just want to call anything they dislike toxic, but we shouldn't throw out a perfectly good word (and associated phrases) just because you think "toxic" is toxic.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#56

Post by Overtonwindow »

xiaoma wrote: post #49
Overtonwindow wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you found anything that speaks to single-sex education in western countries as better, or worse for girls, or boys?

Gender-segregated parochial schools in the US tend to have typical outcomes for boys and notably good outcomes for girls. (at least back when I was a student in the early 90s)

So single-sex education might be good for girls in America, but not for boys?

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#57

Post by hectorr1 »

tomp wrote: post #26
pjc50 wrote: post #9

The answer seems to be "toxic masculinity". (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) > For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study > Boys also reported worse relationships with their male teachers > male teachers were three times as…

> (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) I'd suggest that the term itself is toxic (and/or sexist). If you think otherwise, can you suggest examples of (stereotypically) masculine behaviours that aren't considered toxic, but positive by the mainstream public/m…

Positive masculinity: Discipline, risk taking, steadfastness, strength, mortal courage.

"Toxic" femininity: Gossip, hysteria.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#58

Post by gm-conspiracy »

thriftwy wrote: post #50
gm-conspiracy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many more of "them" than you. They need their bread and circuses, otherwise, they will come pillage your property.

> There are many more of "them" than you. > they will come pillage your property Going by your reasoning, there are many more people without property than ones with, why bother protecting property rights at all? That's "most people" fallacy you are showing all over the thread.

I didn't say they didn't have any property, they just want yours, too.

Also, if there were a large group with nothing to lose, you would not need any protection of your property?

By that reasoning, society would have protections in place to prevent against theft and robbery.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#60

Post by xiaoma »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #56
xiaoma wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender-segregated parochial schools in the US tend to have typical outcomes for boys and notably good outcomes for girls. (at least back when I was a student in the early 90s)

So single-sex education might be good for girls in America, but not for boys?

That was the case, at least for parochial schools in the 90s.
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