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Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

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Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#51

Post by nwah1 »

charlesdm wrote: post #18
rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…

In some classes, where grades can be determined purely subjectively, instructors can use effort-based logic as a guiding principle.

The problems, however, are multifold.

I remember a high school art class where I just had a complete writers-block - or maybe artists-block - and was not able to do much on a large pencil drawing while sitting in class. I just couldn't work while seated in rows with everyone else sketching away, for some reason.

But as the deadline came due, I sat down at home and sketched for 16 hours straight, barely even stopping for eating. It required so much shading that my hand hurt like never before. It ended up looking quite good, from what everyone told me.

When the grades came back, I had a D, while others who had much worse looking and mostly unshaded drawings received Bs. Naturally, I asked about this, and I was told that I must not have put in much effort, because he didn't see me putting in effort.

My burning rage at this event and the entire logic behind it all has been permanently seared into my memory.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#52

Post by moxious »

whistlerbrk wrote: post #46

A major rule in parenting is to praise effort and hard work which strengthens the 'internal locus of control' as opposed to seeing some positive action and then commenting on how smart they are. People view 'smarts' as something binary, you are or you aren't and therefore you are strengthening the external locus of control. Eventually when smarts aren't enough, and additional progress requires grit, those who were pr…

There are no widely accepted rules in parenting, because the outcomes people are trying to create in their kids are so wildly different. Raising kids is like cooking a dish over a decade or more with no recipe. Imagine one set of parents making brownies, and another trying to make Chicken Kiev. How much chocolate should you use?

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#53

Post by mattlondon »

Anecdote:

I had always been told I was intelligent and clever. When it came to the exams everyone takes as a 15/16 year old in the UK I distinctly remember thinking to myself something like: "everyone has to be able to pass these exams, so I should be able to pass easily without much effort since I am one of the clever kids".

I didn't cheat, but my line of thought led me to a fairly disappointing set of results (as you'd expect).

Even now I think of myself as "smarter than the average bear", but I have the feeling that people were just telling me that because they were my parent/grand parent/friendly neighbor/aunt etc and now it is SET IN STONE IN MY BRAIN after years of reinforcement as a child.

What really confuses me though, is how can I think I am smarter than average, yet suffer from near constant impostor-syndrome? :-)

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#54

Post by knappa »

charlesdm wrote: post #18
rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…

> I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous.

It seems to me that having parents and teachers praise hard work are different things. Kids likely aren't looking for the same kind of emotional support from the two.

Relatedly, even evaluating the hardness of hard work would be difficult if you don't observe it. I've had (university) students occasionally tell me that they have spent implausibly long hours studying for my classes. Hey, maybe they aren't lying about the time spent, but my general suspicion is that "studying" consists of opening the textbook and placing it to the side while they play around on Facebook or some such nonsense.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#55

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

rtpg wrote: post #38
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's insane. When I "make an effort" to pay a parking ticket on time and I don't, nobody gives me a shiny sticker star - I have to pay double instead. EDIT: People, I said nothing about children paying parking tickets or about poor people. My comment is an example of a self-inflicted problem that is exacerbated by self-inflicted delay, to which the consequences must be borne by the individual as is the nature of li…

This comment lacks a bit of empathy. If someone is trying, even if they fail, that means they are more likely to improve if they receive the right sort of feedback or support. Someone who isn't trying lacks even the basic motivation necessary to try. Instead, if you treat someone who tries and fails the same as someone who doesn't and fails, then there is an incentive for the person to not even try! For your parking…

I lack ALL empathy for me when I am confronted with such a double fine. It was my wrongdoing, so I suck it up and pay up.

I, an adult of sound mind and stable finances, occasionally forget to pay parking tickets on time. I am punished by a doubling of the fine. I deserve that punishment by breaking the law a second time, and I pay for that violation of the law by paying the double fine. It sucks but I move on.

These edge case straw-men are not a productive retort to my statement.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#56

Post by _jal »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #29
charlesdm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…

That's insane. When I "make an effort" to pay a parking ticket on time and I don't, nobody gives me a shiny sticker star - I have to pay double instead. EDIT: People, I said nothing about children paying parking tickets or about poor people. My comment is an example of a self-inflicted problem that is exacerbated by self-inflicted delay, to which the consequences must be borne by the individual as is the nature of li…

And interestingly, societies in which children routinely pay parking tickets are rare.

There are different purposes to different activities. Teaching kids how to learn, for instance, anticipates a different outcome than chastising people for antisocial parking.

Or do you believe yelling at sick children until they get healthy is the proper approach?

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#57

Post by computereye »

Confidence from being told you're smart might be important for child development and performance in school. Cheating and dishonesty are morally bad but most of the times this behavior leads to good outcome (but very bad sometimes). Looking at it another way, it's called hacking/gaming the system/bending the rules.

The results of the study show that kids are more likely to cheat, but they don't show it is bad for a successful and happy life.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#58

Post by subway »

inZGBl wrote: post #48
rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

I think that's probably more personality than anything else. I was always told I was smart and was never motivated. Perfect example: I took the ACT only once because I scored a 30 and it wasn't worth it for me to try to improve that score. Meanwhile, all of my honors & AP class friends took it several times scoring 33s, 34s, & 35s. This was a direct result of my "intelligence complex" and yet I have no trouble learni…

I also struggle in this manner. If I don't grok something, I'm intensely motivated to work on/with it until I do. If I'm not careful though, that motivation completely disappears the moment I achieve a sense of an understanding of the topic.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#59

Post by agumonkey »

mattlondon wrote: post #53

Anecdote: I had always been told I was intelligent and clever. When it came to the exams everyone takes as a 15/16 year old in the UK I distinctly remember thinking to myself something like: "everyone has to be able to pass these exams, so I should be able to pass easily without much effort since I am one of the clever kids". I didn't cheat, but my line of thought led me to a fairly disappointing set of results (as y…

because both are self induced judgements ? some times you will have confidence (smart) and sometimes not (impostor).

The desire for adults to see genius children is detrimental I believe. I too grew up with lots of praise although it wasn't family only. It didn't help me much. Especially since I was kept in normal schools at normal pace, so now I'm bored and spoiled. College slapped 90% of that out of me. I still feel like a genius occasionally and although feel like a fraud most of the time.

to add some value to the topic of education, what people call intelligence in children is often an ease for some abstraction and systematic thinking. While most kids are scattered and down to earth. But there will be subjects or times when even your(my) nice brain will fail to appreciate some idea or detail. Especially outside of your natural tastes.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#60

Post by richmarr »

Pulcinella wrote: post #8

This is anecdotal, but I have also noticed the related inverse problem as well. Students who think they are "one of the dumb kids" do much worse than similar students who do not think that. These students will randomly guess the answer to a multiple choice[1] question if they don't instantly know the answer, even if the answer to the question was basically given in another question on the test. Part of helping this k…

> This is anecdotal, but I have also noticed the related inverse problem as well.

Carol Dweck argues in her book (and the research behind it) that you're describing different symptoms of the same problem, rather than an inverse.

The problem being; a mindset that believes a normal person's ability at a task (at least at a high school level) is governed by fixed traits rather than something that can be changed.

- People who consider themselves inherently unskilled at a task are more likely to not bother.

- People who consider themselves inherently skilled at a task are likely to fear failure because it damages their self worth.

- People who focus on growth/learning/effort are less afraid of failure, attempt harder problems and are more resilient to setbacks

These ideas may seem trite these days but the book was published in 2006 so maybe less so then.

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