The 'internet of things' is sending us back to the Middle Ages • Hacker News Board

Re: The 'internet of things' is sending us back to the Middle Ages

#51

Post by mikeyouse » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 7:23 AM UTC

kogepathic wrote: post #46

dozzie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The computer manufacturer Lenovo, for instance, used to sell its computers with a program called “Superfish” preinstalled. > Most "serious" users reformat the machine and re-install the OS to get rid of the OEM included crapware. [...] It's a matter of inconvenience, not impossibility. And this is why said Lenovo included the crapware and spyware in non-volatile memory that is executed by Windows boot automaticall…

> And this is why said Lenovo included the crapware and spyware in non-volatile memory that is executed by Windows boot automatically by design, so your reinstallation doesn't work as intended Could you please provide a citation for this claim? I've never heard of Lenovo bundling parts of Superfish into UEFI to be installed again if Windows is reinstalled.

I think they're referring to the horrible LSE that was exposed at the same time as Superfish. I don't think it ever installed SF but it would auto restore a bunch of other Lenovo garbage before Windows booted;

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theregister.co.uk/AMP/2015/...

Re: The 'internet of things' is sending us back to the Middle Ages

#52

Post by andygates » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 12:30 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #42

golemotron wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is software complexity. You can't really own anything you don't understand, and you can't be free in a world you don't understand. And we don't understand software. What this means is that for all practical purposes AI is already here. AI, or rather the fear of AI, is about software making decisions that impact us outside of our knowledge or control. Prior to software this was done by bureaucracy. We ca…

+1. The AI apocalypse looks more like a Kafka-esque bureaucracy and not so much like I, Robot with machines shooting at us.

Is it truly Kafka-esque when it provides us with adorable kitten gifs? At worst Brave New World-esque, at best actually good. Kitty!

Re: The 'internet of things' is sending us back to the Middle Ages

#53

Post by jeffdavis » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #50

jeffdavis wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"don't put devices on the network that don't meet your security needs" Does it not disturb you that the mere presence of a device on your network could compromise everything else? Why is that? I argue it's because of complexity. We don't really know how these devices behave outside of very controlled circumstances. And the vulnerability could be anywhere in the stack. I remember this bug from a while back: https://lc…

You might find Normal Accidents by Perrow interesting. He describes accidents caused by systems (e.g. nuclear power plants) becoming so complex that they are incomprehensible to humans. "I used to believe that solid components strung carefully together could add up to something understandable. But no, we are beyond that." I think that's true, but it turns out that we don't have any solid components. None.

If you put two nuclear power plants on the same grid, it is pretty hard to imagine how a meltdown of one plant would trigger meltdowns elsewhere on the grid (because the grid carries electrical energy and is incapable of carrying high-speed neutrons). But with software, you don't have to imagine such failures, they happen all the time (because the internet can carry any data, including more software). So I still maintain that software systems are more complex. And if they aren't more complex today, they will be soon, because the complexity is growing without any obvious bound.

But for the sake of argument, let's say they are of comparable complexity. If you show a layperson a nuclear power plant, and say "who do you think should run this: you, or a team of nuclear engineers?" they would probably answer "a team of nuclear engineers, please". Show the same person a television, and they will feel like they should be able to operate it. But it's actually an internet-enabled TV running sophisticated software that is on the same home network as your internet-enabled security camera system, and it's a very unsettling situation. In other words, now software makes everything -- toasters, TVs, phones, cars -- into incomprehensible systems.

Re: The 'internet of things' is sending us back to the Middle Ages

#54

Post by rwnspace » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 5:14 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #42

golemotron wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is software complexity. You can't really own anything you don't understand, and you can't be free in a world you don't understand. And we don't understand software. What this means is that for all practical purposes AI is already here. AI, or rather the fear of AI, is about software making decisions that impact us outside of our knowledge or control. Prior to software this was done by bureaucracy. We ca…

+1. The AI apocalypse looks more like a Kafka-esque bureaucracy and not so much like I, Robot with machines shooting at us.

This is one of the issues with sci-fi movies for the less metaphorically minded. Or, well, anyone. I find books make the ideas much more portable, which is half the fun of sci-fi in the first place. Things in real life are never exactly what they're like in the pictures.