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France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

reuters.com

51–60 of 195 posts

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#51
post #16

This is not about taxing revenues instead of profits. This is about taxing EU-wide profits in EU countries proportional to the revenues generated in that country. At the moment, many big tech companies use bookkeeping tricks to make it look like all their profit is generated in, for example, Ireland, while the revenue is generated in other EU counties. Unfortunately, Ireland has special tax rates for these companies…

Yes, this is the (I think) a step in the right direction. Don't have special judgements about taxes (i.e. Apple in Ireland) because companies try to minimize the tax they pay. Actually change the laws so it's consistent for all companies.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#52
Someone needs to start a company that offers transfer pricing as a service. Sign up and get a physical address, subsidiary corporations, bank accounts and even employees & board members in Ireland. Much of this can be shared infrastructure of course. If tax avoidance is going to be legal for the big guys, why not make it accessible to everyone?

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#53
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many American companies (including most or all YC startups) do the same, incorporating in the low-tax state of Delaware for favourable tax treatment even though the company's offices and bulk of revenue-generation are elsewhere.

If you have headquarters in California you pay tax here as well as a bit in Delaware The reason to register in Delaware is because of business friendly courts there. I don't believe there is a tax advantage

Delaware doesn't have unusually friendly for business courts. It mostly just has a lot of established case law. It's cheaper for businesses when they know where the lines are on most laws because of previous cases and rulings. Ambiguity is more expensive than the level of bias in most legal situations.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#54
post #16

This is not about taxing revenues instead of profits. This is about taxing EU-wide profits in EU countries proportional to the revenues generated in that country. At the moment, many big tech companies use bookkeeping tricks to make it look like all their profit is generated in, for example, Ireland, while the revenue is generated in other EU counties. Unfortunately, Ireland has special tax rates for these companies…

Many American companies (including most or all YC startups) do the same, incorporating in the low-tax state of Delaware for favourable tax treatment even though the company's offices and bulk of revenue-generation are elsewhere.

California corporate law is much worse than that of Delaware. Corporations are taxed by every state where they have to register to do business. For every corporation with a California HQ, that certainly includes the Golden State.

Corporations, such as Microsoft, which are headquartered in states with nicer bodies of corporate law frequently choose to incorporate in their home state, such as Washington.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#55
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have headquarters in California you pay tax here as well as a bit in Delaware The reason to register in Delaware is because of business friendly courts there. I don't believe there is a tax advantage

The federal corporate tax can be up to 35%, which is the highest in the world outside of some literally banana republics. Delaware has a corporate tax rate of 8.7%, California has 8.84. So yes no one is incorporating in Delaware becuase of taxes, WA, TX, NV and a few others have zero corporate tax.

WA has business & occupation tax which functions like a corporate income tax but it is levied on revenue rather than profit.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#56

There is room for innovation in taxation. We need new smart taxation for information economy. Taxing network externalizes and economic barriers for entry for example. Taxation could be used as natural pressure to correct market failures. Taxing revenue is not what EU countries propose, but it could be viable solution. Thinking aloud: If company has market share of X% of the population it pays tax from the revenue rel…

> Taxation could be used as natural pressure to correct market failures. Taxation isn't natural. By the way, I'd like to remind everyone: when the state taxes something, the state now depends on that thing for its budget. > If retail company that has 30% market share pays 0.3% extra from its revenue compared to tiny company with just 10,000 customers, it would probably be enough to even out the field and limit barrie…

I run business in Finland and pay high taxes. Friction is not the taxes. If it were, I would have moved my business to Estonia long time ago, it's just few hours away. I could do it over internet in few hours and start within days.

There are different ways for countries compete as "business platforms". I'm not saying that some way is better than another, what I'm saying is that there are different strategies that can work.

High taxes in Nordic countries work as form of evolutionary pressure. They harm low-tech low education requirement jobs and businesses. They drive them to China and to the third world. They help high-tech companies and skilled workers, because taxes pay for great education, safety nets general well-being.

Within US different states have different strategies. High-tech hubs seem to tax more and provide more just like Nordic countries. Some states choose to compete with low regulation low pay jobs against Mexico, China and India. Good luck with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_tax_levels_in_the_United...

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#57

Someone needs to start a company that offers transfer pricing as a service. Sign up and get a physical address, subsidiary corporations, bank accounts and even employees & board members in Ireland. Much of this can be shared infrastructure of course. If tax avoidance is going to be legal for the big guys, why not make it accessible to everyone?

I'm sure this exists. The Planet Money folks hired a similar service for some other tax haven.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#58
post #35
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decadent? I take issue. Google, like virtually every large corporation in the world, spends a significant amount of time and resources finding the optimal way to pay the least amount of taxes, through loopholes, borderline or actually illegal schemes, lobbying etc. We're supposed to blame the countries for being defrauded in this way, not the multinationals doing the defrauding? Come off it. You want to do business i…

I view tax codes like buggy software, lawful tax minimisation like zero day exploits — only difference is that the law is not above itself, so if the tax loophole is legal, then it's legal. That said, just because something is legal doesn't make it moral, but even though I think we agree on that, I'd have to argue loopholes are totally in the domain of legislators to fix — if I understand correctly, UK law requires t…

> I view tax codes like buggy software, lawful tax minimisation like zero day exploits

I have it you view lobbying as having a hand in the code you subsequently exploit, and therefore a major ethics breach ?

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#59

> A French court ruled in July French court ruled that Google, now part of Alphabet Inc, was not liable to pay 1.1 billion euros ($1.3 billion) in back taxes because it had no “permanent establishment” in France and ran its operations there from Ireland. How strange. I didn't know Google were an Irish company. I see them when I connect to the internet from all over the world. It looks like Airbnb also have their EMEA…

Double Irish

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#60
post #39

> A French court ruled in July French court ruled that Google, now part of Alphabet Inc, was not liable to pay 1.1 billion euros ($1.3 billion) in back taxes because it had no “permanent establishment” in France and ran its operations there from Ireland. How strange. I didn't know Google were an Irish company. I see them when I connect to the internet from all over the world. It looks like Airbnb also have their EMEA…

That's illegal for a person to do, but legal for these big companies. Don't blame the companies for exploiting loopholes. Blame the law. Fix the law.

The problem with a person doing this style of tax avoidance is that the barrier to entrance is much higher than the gain.

Assuming general principals of US tax law, if you're already working as an independent contractor, you could legally set up a local company and an overseas company, have the local company bill the client, pay you a reasonable amount, and pay the overseas company the remainder for the use of its name (or whatever justification you like).

Your local company would have no net income, but may pay employer side taxes on your wages, and any minimum taxes on corporations in the local jurisdiction.

Your overseas company would have a net income, but you picked an overseas jurisdiction with low taxes, right?

You would have recognized income of the wages, and unrecognized capital gains in the overseas company. At such time as you take the money from the overseas company, that would be recognized as a capital gain.

At the end of the day, you have to run two companies, one in an unfamiliar jurisdiction, and you get to defer recognition of income and change the character of the income from normal income to capital gains. You may also have paid taxes to the overseas jurisdiction that I'm not sure qualifies for a foreign tax credit. It's a real gain, but it may not outweigh the costs.

If you're a direct employee of a company, it's also not an option, since you can't redirect your wages out of your recognized income.

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