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The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

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Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#51

Post by nxc18 »

wutbrodo wrote: post #48
mrguyorama wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIUI, Windows took the philosophy that the user should be the god of their system. By running software, the user has indicated to the OS that "This code is blessed and I want it to run". Where this becomes relevant is that when you shut down, Windows doesn't just kill -9 everything (which it is totally capable of doing), but instead, politely informs all running processes of the imminent shutdown so that they can c…

> AFAIUI, Windows took the philosophy that the user should be the god of their system. By running software, the user has indicated to the OS that "This code is blessed and I want it to run". I really don't buy this. Aside from it being an incredibly dumb way of them to think that any process running was intentionally blessed by the user (have they _used_ a computer at any point in the last couple decades?), it's in d…

The forced restart experience indicates that windows is quite capable of killing any process it wants to. Otherwise you could just run an app to block that feature.

If you read Windows Internals you'll get some insight into how shutdown works. There are lots of things that want to do special work on shutdown, and windows gives them time. Consider, for example, if you have an unsaved document in word; windows won't shutdown until you save the document and close word or windows gets tired of waiting and prompts you to shut down anyway. This is configurable through the registry, btw.

I'd say the n times you hit 'postpone' count as windows giving you your fair warning.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#52

Post by WorldMaker »

mrguyorama wrote: post #39
WorldMaker wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that mindset is still there, but the goal posts have just moved. As you point out, in Vista and 7 the "takes too long" was often just a few seconds (the reported goal in Vista was listed in milliseconds). 8/10 continue to tune that based on telemetrics and user decisions in aggregate on one side and developer/application opt-in to more aggressive app shutdowns on the other side. That app is taking too lon…

I meant the mindset seems to have changed on a grander scale. IE with respect to forcing updates on users and aggressive telemetry collection. I understand how Microsoft is between a rock and a hard place when it comes to OS updates, as a majority of systems being up to date helps with herd immunity to prevent worm-scale attacks lack the past few ransomeware attacks, but at the same time, I hate desktop systems comin…

With the telemetry though, it's hard to argue that isn't about putting users first when so much of the aggressive nature of it seems to be a desire to get as large of a sample size as possible to do the best they can attempt to do the most good for the most users at a time.

I think with recent updates Microsoft continues to listen to the privacy concerns and find a balance between large sample size and genuine privacy explanations and opt-out powers. The new privacy OBE ("out of the box experience") for Fall Creators Update from what I saw of it in Windows Insider build pushes looks like positive steps in that direction.

As for updates, that is a rock and a hard place. I've not had trouble scheduling updates to times that are convenient to me and this is also something I think each Windows 10 update has gotten better at, but I can appreciate how upsetting it can be for those that have had issues with Windows scheduling updates for inconvenient times.

> With some updates even changing system settings

Many of these seem to be accidents and that this is also something that Microsoft (from watching Insider builds) seems aware of and is working to get better at. Some of these accidental settings wipes it felt like you could tell were artifacts of the move to the new "agile" update infrastructure of Windows 10. (Increasingly more "roll up" updates are like what a Windows Upgrade used to be, creating a new registry and C:\Windows entirely, copying important bits from the old ones before replacing them, and it's easy to forget things to copy/patch from the old install, especially new settings. Some of those should have been caught by more Insiders at the time, because almost all Insider builds are installed that way, but the Insiders are a self-selected subset of Windows users that admittedly have their own biases.)

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#53

Post by andrewf »

bradford wrote: post #10

I started at MS during Vista and I've been involved (sometimes tangentially) with Windows ever since. This is all my opinion, but It's been very interesting seeing the decision making process change over time. If I had to summarize the change, I'd say that it's evolved from an expertise-based system to a data based system. The reason why eight people were present at every planning meeting is because their expert opin…

What is the telemetry optimizing? In the web world, most A/B testing is focused on increasing engagement. Half of the time people are trying to build a better Skinner box.

Is this software actually better for users? I would be encouraged if MS was, for instance, optimizing for a user being able to complete the same tasks in less time.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#54

Post by smichel17 »

mrguyorama wrote: post #39
WorldMaker wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that mindset is still there, but the goal posts have just moved. As you point out, in Vista and 7 the "takes too long" was often just a few seconds (the reported goal in Vista was listed in milliseconds). 8/10 continue to tune that based on telemetrics and user decisions in aggregate on one side and developer/application opt-in to more aggressive app shutdowns on the other side. That app is taking too lon…

I meant the mindset seems to have changed on a grander scale. IE with respect to forcing updates on users and aggressive telemetry collection. I understand how Microsoft is between a rock and a hard place when it comes to OS updates, as a majority of systems being up to date helps with herd immunity to prevent worm-scale attacks lack the past few ransomeware attacks, but at the same time, I hate desktop systems comin…

I dual boot. I also love new features and updates. On Fedora, I install update very frequently: on Windows, I go to some extremes to prevent certain types of (telemetry) updates from being installed.

On my phone, every app from F-Droid is updated daily; I've avoided installing updates to preinstalled Samsung crap from GPlay for months.

Instead of forcing updates on me, Microsoft might first try convincing me to trust that they're in my best interest, first.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#55

Post by alistproducer2 »

theoutlander wrote: post #7

I can relate to this. It was a common theme across Microsoft. In one instance, the team I was part of was responsible for the initial integration of Bing and Facebook. We had about 24 dedicated people on the team (a few partner/principal group managers too!). Our team was considered agile because we released most features every 4 months (this was around 2009 I think)!!! Anyway, we had a hackathon at Facebook with Zuc…

Wow. And I thought things were bad at my fortune 5. That is insane. You should seriously write a blog (or maybe a book?) about that.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#56

Post by hackbinary »

pavement wrote: post #29
ajross wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't purely a software engineering mess though. The PC architecture for "off" is a mess at the hardware level too. I mean, long ago you just had a physical switch on the power supply. But then filesystem authors invented buffering and that wasn't safe anymore. So now there were two ways to shut the machine off: the "safe" way and the old way (where the "old" way was still available via e.g. holding the power bu…

If I don't like what a computer is doing, I will frequently just yank the plug, pull the battery, flip the circuit breaker, and fuck the rest. All this buffering and fault tolerance is bullshit at the consumer level. If the disk's file table gets fucked up, then let it burn. I'll format the disk and re-install your stupid operating system as I see fit, whenever I want, and keep my actual data safe and sound far away…

I think you meant:

It is now safe to burn.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#57

Post by Analemma_ »

bo1024 wrote: post #40
bradford wrote: post #10

I started at MS during Vista and I've been involved (sometimes tangentially) with Windows ever since. This is all my opinion, but It's been very interesting seeing the decision making process change over time. If I had to summarize the change, I'd say that it's evolved from an expertise-based system to a data based system. The reason why eight people were present at every planning meeting is because their expert opin…

Very interesting and thanks for the post. Does Windows 10 actually conduct ongoing A/B tests and use telemetry to evaluate them? (for example the interface used by two people on two different computers might look different, or something) I'm intrigued but still very skeptical about the effectiveness of the data-based approach to UI design. That seems to be an area where local, hillclimbing optimization can lead to a…

Yes. The blog for the Windows Insider Program makes frequent references to beta features that were shipped in different forms to different users and then a decision made based on the telemetry from those flights.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#58

Post by jimjimjim »

ajross wrote: post #18
theoutlander wrote: post #7

I can relate to this. It was a common theme across Microsoft. In one instance, the team I was part of was responsible for the initial integration of Bing and Facebook. We had about 24 dedicated people on the team (a few partner/principal group managers too!). Our team was considered agile because we released most features every 4 months (this was around 2009 I think)!!! Anyway, we had a hackathon at Facebook with Zuc…

This isn't purely a software engineering mess though. The PC architecture for "off" is a mess at the hardware level too. I mean, long ago you just had a physical switch on the power supply. But then filesystem authors invented buffering and that wasn't safe anymore. So now there were two ways to shut the machine off: the "safe" way and the old way (where the "old" way was still available via e.g. holding the power bu…

six

shutdown -r now + pull the power cable out of the wall when i see the bios screen.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#59

Post by titanix2 »

rhencke wrote: post #38
dingo_bat wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It still takes a lot of political effort to change primary UI features though. Hasn't prevented the travesty that the win10 UI is, though.

Travesty is a bit hyperbolic, no? The Win10 UI works. It's stable. It's reasonably efficient at getting things done. It's reasonably compatible with people's expectations of how Windows works. (no Win8-style revamp of Start, etc.) There's parts of it I dislike greatly, personally. (Cortana, the Settings/Control Panel split.) It's annoying and unpolished on parts like that, but I can't say it's a _travesty_.

It's ugly (especially the dialog boxes) and obviously targeted at tablets. As the Surface don't perform well, I hope one day Microsoft will come back to its root and release an edition of Windows tailored for the PC.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#60

Post by pjmlp »

0xbear wrote: post #49
Theodores wrote: post #20

I have decided to stick with writing code rather than progress my career. Consequently I am that minority in the team delivering features that customers use. I take personal pride in that and keep quiet about it. Those reports, those plans, the documentation, the mock ups, the meetings and the emails are not in the final product, all that work counted for next to nothing. Ultimately it was mostly two of us working aw…

You'll be out of a job by your mid-40's. I suggest you reconsider your decision to not "progress your career".

Thankfully the rest of the world is not like SV.
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