India demonetisation fails to purge black money • Hacker News Board

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#51

Post by vikiomega9 » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:20 PM UTC

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #43

gordon_freeman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I think the headline title here is wrong. Prime Minister Modi has always said that demonetisation of Rs. 500 and Rs. 1000 is just the beginning and Step #1. The next step is to probe the bank accounts of these wealthy individuals and give them an opportunity to explain why the Tax has not been paid on it before seizing it.

Unfortunately PM Modi and his government have been constantly shifting the goalposts. In the beginning they did promise demonetization as a way to render all black money null.

Isn't auditing for tax purposes a means of annulling black money?

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#52

Post by statguy » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:22 PM UTC

harigov wrote: post #48

statguy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is just one anecdote. OTOH 103 people died in the process, productivity was lost by people standing in lines all day, GDP growth declined by over 2%, RBI's credibility has been destroyed. Sure, some rich suffered, but many more poor lost their livelihood.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think RBI credibility is destroyed? Indian Rupee seems to be faring well compared to other currencies. Do you have any data around poor losing their livelihood? Last time I checked, street-side vendors continued selling stuff. Most poor people would rarely deal with 500/1000 so I don't know where is this coming from.

A simple google search gets you

RBI loosing its credibility:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/post-demonetisation-r...

http://indianexpress.com/article/business/banking-and-financ... > This has led to people such as former prime minister Manmohan Singh (himself a former RBI chief), former finance minister P Chidambaram, and former RBI governors Y V Reddy and Bimal Jalan raising concerns about the “harm” to the RBI’s “credibility” and talking of the “institutional damage” it has “suffered” in the process.

http://www.mydigitalfc.com/my-world/rbi-row-oppn-slams-govt-... > “I don’t think ever before, the employees of a government institution especially an independent and respectable institution like RBI have written against its national policy. Very clearly RBI has compromised to an extent never ever before. Prime Minister Modi and his government have destroyed RBI, its credibility and the role of an institution,” Congress leader Sandeep Dikshit told ANI.

Poor loosing jobs

https://thewire.in/157093/1-5-million-jobs-lost-2017-demonet...

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/demonetisation-35-per...

https://twitter.com/r0h1n/status/885774769622196224

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#53

Post by ijafri » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:25 PM UTC

i don't think any real dude having enough money would keep it in a local currency when he can just buy euro bonds or foreign currency $ or Euro etc ... it i guess only had effected small fishes to some extent, but at the end of the day, the question remain did it help at all curb corruption. Corruption like water will pave its way in terms of monetarily. they will find a way out ... it's not big deal ... such efforts despite looking promising, will be futile.

So my conclusion 'corruption' is not a monetary issue, it's a system issue, fix the system.... and in order to have a 'healthy' system just like we see in the 1st World, everyone makes at least what they deserve or can live good enough ... if not luxurious.

after you give them reasonable good salary keep a check, and hire 'educated' people.

This worked here in Pakistan, our traffic police 'was' most corrupt, Govt raised their salaries 3x .... no more bribe ... they inducted Graduate Students and trained!!! at least our Traffic police dudes are now at Lahore City of Pakistan ... corruption free!!

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#54

Post by Macha » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:32 PM UTC

tryingagainbro wrote: post #15

EU is about to make their 500 EUR illegal http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36208146 in a sense. If you're a drug dealer or a politician (no need to add the corrupt label in certain countries) I can help you with a few of them ;) Yeah, making your cash illegal--it is unless you're willing to explain in year 2032 how you ended up with a 50 gallon drum full of 500 euro notes--will help. But in many countries where the…

So I can understand the €500, as I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable carrying that much cash around. But the articles also said there were calls to abolish the $100 (?) and £50 notes. Which I find really surprising.

The £50 note is not that different in value from the €50, and there's a lot of atms here that simply will not stock up €20 notes and good luck finding an atm that still dispenses €10 notes.

(Maybe it's a deliberate move by the banks to force people into using digital payments, if they can't get smaller denominations easily - it'd definitely be a 180)

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#55

Post by rajathagasthya » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 7:15 PM UTC

statguy wrote: post #52

harigov wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think RBI credibility is destroyed? Indian Rupee seems to be faring well compared to other currencies. Do you have any data around poor losing their livelihood? Last time I checked, street-side vendors continued selling stuff. Most poor people would rarely deal with 500/1000 so I don't know where is this coming from.

A simple google search gets you RBI loosing its credibility: http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/post-demonetisation-r... http://indianexpress.com/article/business/banking-and-financ... > This has led to people such as former prime minister Manmohan Singh (himself a former RBI chief), former finance minister P Chidambaram, and former RBI governors Y V Reddy and Bimal Jalan raising concerns about the “harm” to the…

3 out of the 4 persons mentioned here (Singh, Chidambaram and Dikshit) are opposition party leaders, so I wouldn't take their statements at face value.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#56

Post by harigov » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

statguy wrote: post #52

harigov wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think RBI credibility is destroyed? Indian Rupee seems to be faring well compared to other currencies. Do you have any data around poor losing their livelihood? Last time I checked, street-side vendors continued selling stuff. Most poor people would rarely deal with 500/1000 so I don't know where is this coming from.

A simple google search gets you RBI loosing its credibility: http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/post-demonetisation-r... http://indianexpress.com/article/business/banking-and-financ... > This has led to people such as former prime minister Manmohan Singh (himself a former RBI chief), former finance minister P Chidambaram, and former RBI governors Y V Reddy and Bimal Jalan raising concerns about the “harm” to the…

I wouldn't take the statements about credibility at their face value. AFAIK it didn't seem like RBI's credibility got affected. Also, as other poster cited, most of those seem to be the opposition and they are just "concerns" rather than "facts".

With respect to poor losing jobs, that seems like a play around statistics more so than actual facts. 1.5 million out of 406.5 million lost jobs, which equals to 0.36%. Employment usually goes in cycles so we don't know how this relates to the previous year. Given that April is the end of financial year, could it be the case that people usually get fired during that time? I don't know.

I have no meat in this game. I would consider myself as an observer interested in knowing how it worked out. This whole debate is very polarised and it is hard to separate fact from fiction. I would take everything with a grain of salt. As an Indian growing up in the hopes of seeing a developed country, I was hopeful that this could actually be the catalyst that roots out corruption. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case. Well, we keep dreaming on...

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#57

Post by statguy » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 7:29 PM UTC

rajathagasthya wrote: post #55

statguy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simple google search gets you RBI loosing its credibility: http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/post-demonetisation-r... http://indianexpress.com/article/business/banking-and-financ... > This has led to people such as former prime minister Manmohan Singh (himself a former RBI chief), former finance minister P Chidambaram, and former RBI governors Y V Reddy and Bimal Jalan raising concerns about the “harm” to the…

3 out of the 4 persons mentioned here (Singh, Chidambaram and Dikshit) are opposition party leaders, so I wouldn't take their statements at face value.

Did you even read the articles? There are 5 people mentioned, two of whom are former RBI governors and apolitical. While Manmohan Singh and Chidambaram are from the opposition, they are noted economists - MMS had predicted back in Nov. 2016 that GDP growth would drop by two percentage points and he was bang on target. The third article was about a letter written by RBI employees about the RBI loosing credibility and the Congress spokesperson was simply echoing their words. I can't provide more sources right now (on phone) - during the demonetization period - ATMs were not working, shortage of new notes, RBI issuing new directives each day because it could not cope, a general confusion all around - all severely damaged the RBI.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#58

Post by tryingagainbro » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 7:49 PM UTC

harigov wrote: post #45

paapi__gudiya wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road-side merchants live hand-to-mouth and would anyways not contribute to tax because their incomes are so low. Every study out there suggests that demonetisation was a big blunder, causing a very severe blow to the Indian economy, including the death of 150+ civilians. The real motive for demonetisation was to legitimize the black money of the ruling party BJP and eliminate black money of opposition parties.

If they start using banks and digital payments, one can build credit score and issue loans to them, so they can develop their business. That is not possible today.

Loans for what? Some people in many fields should NOT get a loan. It will make matter worse...broke and indebted to a bank. Not everyone is gonna make a $1 million a year.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#59

Post by harigov » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 7:50 PM UTC

statguy wrote: post #57

rajathagasthya wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 out of the 4 persons mentioned here (Singh, Chidambaram and Dikshit) are opposition party leaders, so I wouldn't take their statements at face value.

Did you even read the articles? There are 5 people mentioned, two of whom are former RBI governors and apolitical. While Manmohan Singh and Chidambaram are from the opposition, they are noted economists - MMS had predicted back in Nov. 2016 that GDP growth would drop by two percentage points and he was bang on target. The third article was about a letter written by RBI employees about the RBI loosing credibility and…

BTW, the letter from RBI employees was about mismanagement rather than demonetization perse - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/f...

That article that you linked seems to be intentionally ambiguous.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#60

Post by statguy » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

harigov wrote: post #56

statguy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simple google search gets you RBI loosing its credibility: http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/post-demonetisation-r... http://indianexpress.com/article/business/banking-and-financ... > This has led to people such as former prime minister Manmohan Singh (himself a former RBI chief), former finance minister P Chidambaram, and former RBI governors Y V Reddy and Bimal Jalan raising concerns about the “harm” to the…

I wouldn't take the statements about credibility at their face value. AFAIK it didn't seem like RBI's credibility got affected. Also, as other poster cited, most of those seem to be the opposition and they are just "concerns" rather than "facts". With respect to poor losing jobs, that seems like a play around statistics more so than actual facts. 1.5 million out of 406.5 million lost jobs, which equals to 0.36%. Empl…

You may debate about job losses, but all of the aggregate effects have been captured by the GDP growth rate which has dipped to 5.7% compared to 7.9% the same quarter last year.