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U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#51

Post by matt4077 »

exelius wrote: post #4
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did they foresee this probe coming or is this something that they will have to scramble to react to? It depends entirely on whether or not this was a top-down decision. The most efficiently run companies consider the likely returns on illegal activity and the potential ramifications of getting caught. If the math works out in favor of the illegal behavior, they'll go ahead and do that. Depending on the nature of th…

Come on -- the case in question is in India. Bribes are a way of life there. You literally cannot do business there without paying bribes. Nobody had to tell anyone to pay the bribe; if they're anything like every other company I've worked with over there, they have an official slush fund for this stuff. You just do it. Now, it's pretty abhorrent that they doxed a rape victim; and that behavior is reason enough to in…

You can't really use the but-everyone-does-it defence when it's a case that in no way could be considered a business requirement.

Maybe there actually are conscientious business leaders that hate being forced into corruption by some countries' customs–personally, that sounds just a bit too convenient at times, and I've some actually moral business leaders go through all sorts of trouble to avoid being compromised.

One story I remember was the 70 years+ founder of a company, with personal wealth in the 9 digits, refusing to pay some government goon at an airport in west Africa. He spent a day and a half in this guy's office, in 100degF+ heat, without ever being tempted to take the easy way.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#52

Post by ImSkeptical »

adventured wrote: post #20
ImSkeptical wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why this is a good argument. If you can't do business without breaking the law, don't do business. Participating in bribery because everyone else does it is immoral, perpetuates bad behavior, and risks infecting your company with people who act illegally.

The argument you're leveling is equivalent to: never start a business in any country and never do business in any country. It requires a perfect bureaucracy in terms of government and requires perfect knowledge by all participants and at all times (ie it will never exist). Even well run nations generally have very large numbers of regulations on the books, frequently outdated or poorly thought-through, requiring you…

You're right that there are more laws than any one person knows. There are also complex interactions between laws and interpretations of laws such that even diligent legal scholars acting in good faith would struggle to do complex actions without arguably violating some law. I definitely believe the law should be simplified and clarified to improve comprehension.

However, there is a world of difference between unwittingly violating subsection III A.15 of some act you've never heard of, and intentionally bribing a government official. In the latter case you are intentionally suborning the function of government for your own benefit, and corrupting the whole system thereby.

Bribery is inefficient. Systems that operate according to law are safer, cleaner, and more productive. The only argument in favor of bribery is that in the short term, the specific criminals involved, get what they want. That's not a great argument when compared to the harmony and productivity of a society.

Bribery is illegal for a reason. If you can't do business without committing a crime, then you shouldn't do business. If India's culture has rampant bribery, then firms from less bribery-inclined areas should not do business there. Either other countries will come around to India's policy of bribing people, or India, desirous of commerce with the outside world, will come around to the "Bribery is bad" school of thought. In either case, whole societies will be enriched and improved.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#53

Post by throwaway2048 »

Matt3o12_ wrote: post #49

This is a bit off topic but I have never understood why the US cares about corruption in foreign governments. I understand why corruption is bad and should not happen but what I don’t understand why the US cares. If a US company can make more money this way (without violating any domestic bribery laws) why does the US care? It is not like that they are known to have high moral standards when it comes to other countri…

They care because it becomes a political disaster for America when an American corporation is enabling some kind of bribery scandal.

This could easily lead to american investment abroad being blocked, and generally tarnishing the image of America on the international stage.

A lot of the American world order is based upon the perception that America are "good guys", allowing corruption to run rampant is very counter to that.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#54

Post by malka »

matt4077 wrote: post #48
tryingagainbro wrote: post #12

Gut feeling: they did it, early and often. In many countries that's the only way to operate it, especially if you're breaking the laws (taxi rules and regs.) A wire transfer or a suitcase full of cash will automatically make you complaint and a law abiding company...doesn't matter who complains about you. They will throw the person under the bus and pay a huge fine, but it will definitely hurt them in a lot of countr…

That is true in some foreign countries, but probably not as many as one may think. Uber ran into a lot of trouble in countries such as France and Germany, where attempts of bribery are probably doomed–if only because whoever you're trying to bribe is quite likely not to even understand what you're trying to do. That doesn't mean you couldn't find corrupt people in those countries. But the sort of regulatory trouble U…

There is actually some corruption in France (domestically). If you work in the building business and want some juicy contract with the City, building gratis a new pool for the mayor's house will definitely help.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#55

Post by pimmen »

Matt3o12_ wrote: post #49

This is a bit off topic but I have never understood why the US cares about corruption in foreign governments. I understand why corruption is bad and should not happen but what I don’t understand why the US cares. If a US company can make more money this way (without violating any domestic bribery laws) why does the US care? It is not like that they are known to have high moral standards when it comes to other countri…

They care because if I expand to the foreign market rather than in the US market because I can bribe my way to advantages, that's competing on very unfair terms with competitors that stay in the US.

That and the fact that OECD has a convention against bribery, so if you want to trade in the largest trading block in the world on good terms, you better help enforce the rules.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#56

Post by fish_fan »

Thinpad wrote: post #44

SEC: Qualcomm Hired Relatives of Chinese Officials to Obtain Business https://www.sec.gov/news/pressrelease/2016-36.html Not one head rolled or Jailed.. They settled despite brazenly violating the FCPA rules which most of them are trained for every year.

Is that considered bribery in china? Is it illegal?

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#57

Post by tomp »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #18
rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the facilitation payment exception to the FCPA is (i) extremely narrow; (ii) still requires the company to accurately report the payment as a facilitation payment, which Uber probably didn't do: https://globalanticorruptionblog.com/2014/06/17/the-fcpas-fa... > On top of that, even if a grease payment is exempt from the FCPA’s anti-bribery provisions, if that payment were not accurately recorded as a facilit…

Very interesting! Thanks. The FCPA is a minefield that I'm still trying to wrap my head around many years after I was first trained on it.

What do you mean by "minefield"? To me, it sounds pretty easy to comply with - just don't offer (or accept) bribes.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#58

Post by [deleted] »

Matt3o12_ wrote: post #49

This is a bit off topic but I have never understood why the US cares about corruption in foreign governments. I understand why corruption is bad and should not happen but what I don’t understand why the US cares. If a US company can make more money this way (without violating any domestic bribery laws) why does the US care? It is not like that they are known to have high moral standards when it comes to other countri…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#59

Post by dsfyu404ed »

r00fus wrote: post #45
dreamcompiler wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wikipedia article says that Trump called the FCPA a "horrible law" but Jeff Sessions says he'll continue to enforce it.

Which means "selective enforcement".

What part about "Jeff Sessions" didn't you get?

The dude is pretty fanatical when it comes to enforcing the law. I don't think he understands what "selective" means.

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