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Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

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Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#51
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the article isn't arguing that, the article seems to be arguing we are something more than engineers. But we are not even engineers, let alone more. There are some people active in the production of software that would qualify as engineers but that's a tiny fraction and they're not going to be found too far from medical devices and aerospace.

Aerospace software engineer here. :-) I feel perfectly content to deem my work as "engineering". I can understand why someone quickly whipping up a small web application (which is not to imply that all web applications are quickly whipped up, nor that all web applications are small) might reasonably feel that their work is not engineering. So since I've also done quick little web applications, what do I think the dif…

People in our own field tend to assume that because there are "software engineers" who are clearly not doing engineering must mean that no software engineers are engineers.

I think a lot of "software engineers" fall under what in another industry would be called a "technician" which muddies the discussion.

Although I'm not sure I'd even put the bar as high as medical, financial, and military.

A sufficiently large web application can indeed require a level of discipline often associated with engineering. The amount of process and control when you have 50 people working on a project and millions of users is very different than the lone hacker in their garage.

You also implied that in engineering making a tiny change can be a year worth of paperwork. While not as extreme as that, if your handling credit card data for instance there is a lot of paperwork, documentation, and verification that goes into pushing a change live.

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#52

> Writing stable code and being available to fix your bugs, even sometimes after hours. Nah I'd rather be available during hours to fix my bugs. Call me old fashioned, but does anyone not believe your work should not follow you home? I love what France is doing with the "right to disconnect"

Hear, hear!

The inabilty of the young folk to disconnect from their work is disasterous.

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#54
I don't think this manifesto adds any kind of value to developers. The word that come to my mind is "shallow". Pretentious, pompous. Of course "coders" will love it.

Perhaps UI and UX design is an art, but at the end software requires engineering.

The only manifesto i'd recommend is this one:

http://programming-motherfucker.com/

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#55
post #39

Of course, the original comparison between coders and artists was made by Paul Graham in Hackers and Painters: https://www.amazon.com/Hackers-Painters-Big-Ideas-Computer/d...

And then there was this:

http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#56
post #50
post #2

The term artisan always makes me think of pizza. How about referring to ourselves as smiths instead? Imagine upon being asked what do you do for a living and responding that you're a codesmith!

Calling ourselves artisan and craftsman, makes it feel like we're embarrassed about how other perceive us. It feels like we are borrowing titles from other professions in effort to legitimize our profession. (or inventing new ones) Software "Engineer" Software "Architect" * "Designer" Solutions * Distinguished * Software "Evangelist" "Technologists" * Specialist

I disagree about “engineer” vs “developer”.

“Engineer” and “architect” are much more nuanced and hard to distinguish.

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#57
post #36

Oh my god this is such pompous article. None of these things are specific to software developers, and 90% of the things it says are platitudes that mean nothing. There are even some that are just wrong, like the 'throw it away' section. "It's not the code that is valuable. It's the understanding you've gained from building it." What? Maybe at some places, but where I work, the software I write is NEEDED. And this: "N…

> Has he never heard of the second system effect? My team and I were recently working on a replacement for an old service. One weekend I thought, "I could re-write the whole thing in a way better, clever-er way!" I stayed up way too late hacking on it. It was my masterpiece. Sunday night I uploaded it to our org's GitHub and then on Monday the team lead was like "Um, what's that?" and then I knew that the feelings I'…

But it was better!

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#58
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the article isn't arguing that, the article seems to be arguing we are something more than engineers. But we are not even engineers, let alone more. There are some people active in the production of software that would qualify as engineers but that's a tiny fraction and they're not going to be found too far from medical devices and aerospace.

Aerospace software engineer here. :-) I feel perfectly content to deem my work as "engineering". I can understand why someone quickly whipping up a small web application (which is not to imply that all web applications are quickly whipped up, nor that all web applications are small) might reasonably feel that their work is not engineering. So since I've also done quick little web applications, what do I think the dif…

I've worked in banking. I (re)wrote a fuel estimation program for cargo aircraft (so software that is used only prior to a flight). Let's just say the two have very little to do with each other when it comes to process and leave it at that.

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#59
post #35

Oh my god this is such pompous article. None of these things are specific to software developers, and 90% of the things it says are platitudes that mean nothing. There are even some that are just wrong, like the 'throw it away' section. "It's not the code that is valuable. It's the understanding you've gained from building it." What? Maybe at some places, but where I work, the software I write is NEEDED. And this: "N…

I mostly agree. They're selling a development platform. You could look at this at marketing fluff aimed at stroking the egos of their prospective customers.

Ah, makes sense.

'Come, write your code on this artisanal platform, carefully crafted by Tibetan monks in their 5th year of a 10 year vow of silence'

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#60
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aerospace software engineer here. :-) I feel perfectly content to deem my work as "engineering". I can understand why someone quickly whipping up a small web application (which is not to imply that all web applications are quickly whipped up, nor that all web applications are small) might reasonably feel that their work is not engineering. So since I've also done quick little web applications, what do I think the dif…

People in our own field tend to assume that because there are "software engineers" who are clearly not doing engineering must mean that no software engineers are engineers. I think a lot of "software engineers" fall under what in another industry would be called a "technician" which muddies the discussion. Although I'm not sure I'd even put the bar as high as medical, financial, and military. A sufficiently large web…

Something else interesting is that the notion of engineered aerospace software does not necessarily have anything to do with the software itself. A lone hacker in their garage very well could author the exact same software. The difference is in how it was developed, and that there exists a paper trail to demonstrate it was developed and reviewed to sufficient standards. Requirements and tests and reviews don't get installed on the aircraft; the executable object code gets installed on the aircraft.

One might posit that "software engineering" is not very much about developing the actual software at all, but just ensuring that it is done correctly?

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