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In what language do deaf people think?

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Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#51

Post by RiderOfGiraffes »

rictic wrote: post #50
saint-loup wrote: post #7

"Research suggests that the brain of a native deaf signer is organized differently from that of a hearing person." That's trivial. It just means "the mind is a structure inplemented in the brain, so any change in the mind translates into some change in the brain".

It's remarkable if we can observe these differences directly given our currently rather course scanning mechanisms. That may or may not be what the author was saying though.

Not to nit-pick, intended to help: I think you mean "coarse" rather than "course". After the item here a day or two ago about Garden Path sentences, your comment took me several re-takes to parse correctly.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#52

Post by awongh »

est wrote: post #25

> Your speculations raise a larger question: Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to. Wait, I have a question: by thinking in language, does this mean, that, it's very common for people (in the English speaking world) to think like there was a background voice speaking in your head, like the thinking bubble scenes depicted in movies and sitcoms? As a Chinese, n…

actually, AFAIK, all the studies I've seen about english say that when you read, what you're looking at is the shape and pattern of the word, not it's representation as a string of symbols pasted together. (this is why you can read things that are misspelled and not notice that there are mistakes- your brain thinks that the shape of the linked letters looks close enough and is interpreted as being the actual word... besides which, in english letters only represent syllables in the loosest sense- it's not like there is a self-consistent system)

I'm not sure if that middle meaning (of disparate symbols that compose the whole) detracts from making the "word" in it's entirety less abstract, but I would say in general that I think about words in terms of their abstract meaning first, then about their relation to other meanings and words. In general (and more so today with spell check) I would say that no native speaker is thinking about the letters that compose a given word.... I'm sure that there are people who can recall words by thinking of the word as it's written- that sounds like one of those memory retention "hacks" I hear about sometimes. Maybe that system is just more prevalent in the asian education system.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#53

Post by forsaken »

zb wrote: post #19
hunterclarke wrote: post #2

Wow that is mind-blowing. I could not possibly imagine a world without words, especially the ones in my head. It goes against every intuition I have to believe in thought that lacks language.

You should read Richard Feynman's book What Do You Care What Other People Think . There's a really fascinating chapter about this.

I just ordered this book. I loved "Surely you're joking Mr. Feyman" and didn't know there was a sequel. Thanks for the comment!

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#54

Post by TheAmazingIdiot »

epochwolf wrote: post #32
est wrote: post #25

> Your speculations raise a larger question: Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to. Wait, I have a question: by thinking in language, does this mean, that, it's very common for people (in the English speaking world) to think like there was a background voice speaking in your head, like the thinking bubble scenes depicted in movies and sitcoms? As a Chinese, n…

I think in written english. For me written english and spoken english are separate languages. I have extreme difficulty translating english words into their spoken equivalents. The reverse is easier only because I have far more practice with it. I have to memorize the spoken words that associate with the sounds. (Part of this may be because written english has a dozen possible sounds for each letter combination) This…

Heh, you sound like my girlfriend. She has a similar problem in which all letters appear as they do to you with numbers. I've had her sit down and explain what she sees, along with drawing what she sees. She's also the only one she knows that has her type. And she also thinks she's stupid. Btw, she has 4 bachelors, 2 masters, and a phd. Her intellect is through the roof. But because counsellors in her high school had no experience in her learning style, they simply said it was "not applying" or "stupidity" or some such tripe. She also has a photographic and phonophonic memory, so those voices appear in her head telling her how stupid she is.

So yes, even as a SO, I understand. And judging from your writing style and comprehension, you're not stupid... Just different.

There's a few other things you'd be good at, but those would be best to take private.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#55

Post by colah »

est wrote: post #25

> Your speculations raise a larger question: Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to. Wait, I have a question: by thinking in language, does this mean, that, it's very common for people (in the English speaking world) to think like there was a background voice speaking in your head, like the thinking bubble scenes depicted in movies and sitcoms? As a Chinese, n…

Speaking in your head is called subvocalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subvocalization) and many forms of speed reading get the learner to eliminate it.

Subvocalization has several draw backs. One is that it is very bad at multitasking (eg. try reading this comment while counting).

It turns out that when you are subvocalizing, you send tiny impulses to your throat as though you are speaking, just not strong enough to do so. So it is possible to eavesdrop on subvocalization (NASA has experimented with this -- see wiki article).

Some people naturally don't subvocalize because of learning disabilities; they usually have trouble writing and speaking because they have to translate their thoughts into English.

Of course the idea that you are thinking in a language is rather terrifying. Consider how it is moulding your thoughts. The idea that language effects your thoughts is called the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. (Some people have tried to make better languages to think in, see lojban.)

I find it interesting to note that when I program, I think, at least partially, in that language -- I've even noticed that I attach sounds to some operators in C. I also notice that the way I think varies depending on the area of math I'm working in: when I am doing algebra or calculus, it's a combination of subvocalized math and visualisation of formulas, whereas complex analysis is often almost entirely visual and set theoretic topology often is neither subvocalized or visualised.

/rant

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#56

Post by pbhjpbhj »

sliverstorm wrote: post #45
est wrote: post #25

> Your speculations raise a larger question: Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to. Wait, I have a question: by thinking in language, does this mean, that, it's very common for people (in the English speaking world) to think like there was a background voice speaking in your head, like the thinking bubble scenes depicted in movies and sitcoms? As a Chinese, n…

I don't think in English as if I was having a conversation with myself. I think the best way to describe it is my brain precaches the words of objects or things or concepts I am thinking about. If I look at the bolts sitting on my table, I don't literally think in my mind 'oh look those are bolts'. I recognize them for what they are, my brain does some processing, and at the same time as my mind is about to wander of…

>That's why I get so hung up if I see or discuss something I can't remember the word for. I go into a waiting-for-IO state where I can't precache the right word :)

I've a terrible memory and it's been getting worse, sometimes I'll use a temporary variable until the relevant part of my brain has recalled the proper term - this can be for abstract concepts, names or other nouns. Kinda like when one uses the term "whatsit" or "thing-a-me-bob" in physical speech.

I find that words come to me sometimes days later, especially when it's a given name.

My grandfather had alzeimer's and mother is convinced she is going that way, I'm only in my 30s though - it is a bit worrying but also fascinating to consider the internal machinations.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#57

Post by pbhjpbhj »

colah wrote: post #55
est wrote: post #25

> Your speculations raise a larger question: Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to. Wait, I have a question: by thinking in language, does this mean, that, it's very common for people (in the English speaking world) to think like there was a background voice speaking in your head, like the thinking bubble scenes depicted in movies and sitcoms? As a Chinese, n…

Speaking in your head is called subvocalization ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subvocalization ) and many forms of speed reading get the learner to eliminate it. Subvocalization has several draw backs. One is that it is very bad at multitasking (eg. try reading this comment while counting). It turns out that when you are subvocalizing, you send tiny impulses to your throat as though you are speaking, just not strong…

I gather that subvocalisation also is accompanied by eye movement and some facial muscle activity and that this is used by mentalists like Derren Brown. For example the way the eyes look can show if one is thinking about something in the future or past (although it doesn't work on everyone and I think is culture dependent).

If Sapir-Whorf holds true then we should see those using a specific language excelling in specific areas shouldn't we? Could this perhaps account for some of the stereotypical characteristics we ascribe to different nationalities.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#58

Post by pbhjpbhj »

todayiamme wrote: post #41
est wrote: post #25

> Your speculations raise a larger question: Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to. Wait, I have a question: by thinking in language, does this mean, that, it's very common for people (in the English speaking world) to think like there was a background voice speaking in your head, like the thinking bubble scenes depicted in movies and sitcoms? As a Chinese, n…

At times I think in ways harder to define than just pictures. I see things somehow and yet I cannot explain them in words. I can just feel the relationships between concepts and see how they fit together, but I cannot express it. The truth is that we all think in an undefinable mental language and our common language is an abstraction of that layer. I remember this interesting experiment that I read about in Steven P…

>The truth is that we all think in an undefinable mental language and our common language is an abstraction of that layer.

That's a very big assertion without substantial experimental backing - care to provide some?

Even just defining "think" sounds hard to me.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#59

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Qz wrote: post #34
est wrote: post #25

> Your speculations raise a larger question: Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to. Wait, I have a question: by thinking in language, does this mean, that, it's very common for people (in the English speaking world) to think like there was a background voice speaking in your head, like the thinking bubble scenes depicted in movies and sitcoms? As a Chinese, n…

I'm not sure that English-speaking (and similar languages) people think in a background voice, but rather that we think in meaning and the meaning is echoed back in the mind as English words (or whatever language). For example, there's a lot of times where we will have something that we want to communicate, and we know exactly what it means but not how to say it in words -- often associated with the phrase "something…

>Thisisalsowhyitssomuchahardertounderstandenglishwhenwedon'tputspacesbetweenwords.

I've got to say I scanned over that as quickly as the rest of the para and had no problem understanding it. Indeed it's hard not to see the word patterns. This sort of thing gets tricky when you remove the vowels or when there are collisions at word boundaries (expertsexchange, etc.).

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#60

Post by jallmann »

saint-loup wrote: post #7

"Research suggests that the brain of a native deaf signer is organized differently from that of a hearing person." That's trivial. It just means "the mind is a structure inplemented in the brain, so any change in the mind translates into some change in the brain".

I'm not sure what you mean by "mind," but I think you're missing the point. The article only hinted at the implications of this, but let me make it explicit.

There is a huge distinction between the pre-lingually and post-lingually deaf. Signed and spoken languages stimulate completely different areas of the brain. So if you are delayed in acquiring a language like English you're going to have difficulty mapping between a signed and a spoken language, in grammatical terms (note this does not really affect speech/the ability to speak, since that depends more on training and residual hearing).

Delayed acquisition of a spoken language is basically like learning a foreign language, except much, much harder. And this wasn't really proven definitively until fairly recently, with fMRI studies.

There are some other interesting consequences for things like testing (psychometrics, etc), especially for those tests given verbally or in writing.

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